APEX Hour at SUU

05/27/2025: John DiAntonio (Bonus Episode)

Episode Summary

John DiAntonio from the Utah Shakespeare Festival joins the A.P.E.X. podcast team for a bonus episode.

Episode Transcription

Reese Whitaker 00:01

You are listening to the APEX Hour hosted by Ryan Paul on KSUU Thunder 91.1 This show allows

more personal time with our guests, allowing them to give us their stories and opinions. We will

also give you new music to listen to, hoping you enjoy some new sounds and genres. Welcome

to this episode of The APEX Hour.

Kasen Graff 00:19

Welcome to the APEX Radio Hour. I'm producer Kasen Graff, and I'm joined here in the radio

booth today with Ryan Paul and our special guest, John DiAntonio. I'll turn it over to you, Ryan.

Ryan Paul 00:29

Thank you, Kasen. We are so excited here at the APEX Radio Hour to have John DiAntonio with

us. John DiAntonio is a local and national celebrity, well known amongst rich and poor, bond

and free, all of them. John is the artistic director for the Utah Shakespeare Festival, and so

we're happy to have him here. And I want to start well, first of all, welcome John. Thanks for

being here.

John DiAntonio 00:52

Thanks, Ryan. It's great to be here. Yeah, as a national celebrity, as you put I'm very busy, but

man, it's. No one's ever called me that.

Ryan Paul 01:00

Well, it It's understated. Really, more national treasure is probably the way to go.

John DiAntonio 01:05

Absolutely.

Ryan Paul 01:06

So first of all, what I always like to ask people when, when they get here to the show, is kind of

a how we get to now question. So first of all, could you just kind of tell us a little bit about who

you are, where you came from, that kind of stuff.

John DiAntonio 01:20

Absolutely. So I'm from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, originally. That's the hometown, and see how

we got here. Well, I was a little bit of a sports guy growing up, a troublemaker, class clown. I

discovered when I was 16 years old that theater is a thing. My I was goofing off an English

class, and my theater teacher said, or my English teacher said, you should try this other thing

that I teach called theater. And I did, and then theater became the new trajectory after that of

my life. And went to Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland, Ohio. Undergrad, studied

theater and psychology. After undergrad, went to Los Angeles for a couple of years, then went

to grad school at the National Theater Conservatory in Denver, Colorado. Studied theater there

and then in New York City for several years, and then I joined, started my administrative life as

a Creede Repertory Theatre in Colorado as the several hats there, Associate Artistic Director

and executive director, eventually Producing Artistic Director, and, and, yeah, and then I've

been in Utah the last year and a half as with Utah Shakes. So that's kind of like my work life,

which I guess I don't know, as a workaholic, I'm answering my work life journey, I guess, yeah.

Ryan Paul 02:34

So, I guess the one thing I always like to ask is, you know, you talk about this time in high

school where you, you know, you find out theater was a thing, but, but was there a moment

when you realized, like, I call it the eureka moment, right? This is what I want to do, that I want

to do this exact thing. Not just that theater exists and helps me burn off my creative energies

or whatever, but, but this is how I want to live my life?

John DiAntonio 03:01

Yeah, yeah. If I had to boil that, pick that moment, I think. So in those early years in high

school, we did a play version of The Princess Bride. Our teacher wrote William Goldman asking

permission. Who wrote the screenplay, saying can we do this? Supposedly, she wrote him, I'm

not sure, but and she got permission, and so somehow we did a stage adaptation of that play,

and I played Prince Humperdinck. And it's, of course, the story is brilliant, as you all know, and I

think it was playing Prince Humperdinck in front of an audience specifically made a sort of

Monty Python esque choice of we, we'd have these horses that we'd ride around, but these

horses were just the piece of paper, head of a horse attached to a yardstick, and we, we'd

gallop around the stage as our horses, and I had a sword at my side with, what do you call it? A

sheath for the sword, or whatever. And at one point, I took out the sword, gave it to my six

fingered assistant to hold, and then sheathed the horse into the sword sheath. And at that

moment, it got a good laugh. And I that felt really, really, really good. And I guess I said, Okay, I

want to try to do this for a long time.

Ryan Paul 04:28

So this idea of to do this, we're really talking about acting, right? Like that's you think that, well,

I'm going to be an actor. And you, you tried. I mean, you are an actor. But I mean, you, you

went the route of, I'm going to be a professional actor in because I guess what your choices are

New York or LA is that kind of the?

John DiAntonio 04:49

It doesn't have to be, but it feels that way at certain points. It certainly does. Yeah, yeah, no

doubt, yeah. So at first, well, so okay, I'm going to try and do theater. And I come from a family,

though, that is not an arts family, family of engineers, business people, medical people, and so

that was kind of this idea of I'm gonna do theater, I'm going to do something the arts, acting.

It's terrifying, right? Or at least to my family and myself. And so, anyway, yeah. So, so, you

know, tried to figure out, what does that path looks like? Well, maybe you go study it. And so I

went and studied and fell deeper and deeper in love with it, you know, those initial, you fall in

love with, you know, just getting laughs or this or that. But then eventually, for me, I fell in love

with in the art form, the craft of acting and whatnot and and just realized I had a lot of ground I

had to make up for, and a lot of ground I had to cover. So studied very, very hard and did as

much of it as I possibly could. And, yeah, I mean, in terms of my career, was mostly, I guess

you'd say, a regional theater actor, so living out of a suitcase, doing gigs at theaters and things

like that. But at the same time, it's, it's a tough life. Any, if there's any actors out there

listening, they know you, you're freelance always, you're always hustling for the next job.

You're always audition auditioning. You're dealing with extreme rejection all the time. That's

just the norm. And for like those, A type, control freak, type humans like when I know this is

hard. It's a hard life. And so when I was fortunate enough that this administrative door opened

with this theater that I had worked at several times as an actor, as a playwright, as a director,

the stars were kind of aligning and saying, This is what you got to try. And I have a, I'm always

a "Yes, and" that's sort of my philosophy, that improv philosophy of "yes and" and I like to put

energy into the doors that are opening, as opposed to those doors you wish you could get

through. But I like the doors that that are inviting you in. And those are the ones where I'm like,

I'm going to give you everything. But anyway.

Ryan Paul 06:59

And this is in Creede.

John DiAntonio 07:00

And this is at Creede Rep, yeah, where I've been, I was before Utah for the last 10 years and,

and so, yeah, then. But then once I started the administrative side of things, I was like, oh, no, I

think this is actually the real calling, because for me, it uses all parts of, all parts of the brain,

all parts of your experience. You need to know how to use a spreadsheet. You need to know

how to manage humans. You need to have a deep respect for the craft. You need to enjoy

reading plays. You need to, the list goes on and on and on and on you like to. You need to be

able to wear multiple hats. And so, yeah, I think I'm very fortunate in that I feel like I found my

place.

Ryan Paul 07:39

So I want to get to what exactly an artistic director does. And I'm, I'm making the assumption

that that an artistic director at Utah Shakes is, was a little bit different than the artistic director

at Creede based upon the size of the theater. But I, I'm interested in this moment when you're

sitting down at dinner, or whatever is. And you say to your business, you know, engineer

family, and I'm assuming engineer, not the train driving engineer, but the more boring one.

And, and it says, and you say, "You know what I want to do, mom and dad, I think I want to be

an actor." Like, how did that? Did that go over well? I mean, you know, we had this theory of

parents saying no, not the humanities or not that, or parents who say, "Oh, whatever you

want."

John DiAntonio 08:27

Yeah, I wish I could remember the exact moment of terror for them. I think it was probably a

bad sign when I was like, I went to major in theater, and I then made them feel a lot better

when I double majored in psychology that that didn't help much. But no, I think you know, they

had read, or they knew, Okay, we got we got to be supportive and or maybe he'll outgrow this

at some point. He'll eventually go to law school. It will be okay. But they're wonderful parents,

and so they were supportive, though I could always see the fear behind their eyes. Always, you

know, because it's hard to pay your rent sometimes, and there's no career prospects at times.

And but they always came to the shows. They always cheered, cheered me on, and I like to

joke though that I think they had their first good night's sleep after I got this job at the Utah

Shakespeare Festival.

Ryan Paul 09:20

Well, and they're also comforted by the fact that you're still young. I mean, law school could

still be in your future, right? So, so What? What? What does an artistic director do? And then

how was the job different here than it was in Creede, in that perspective?

John DiAntonio 09:44

So an artistic director, their job is to shape the artistic vision for the theater, and that manifests

itself in many different ways, from the shows that we're going to program to the artists we'll

bring in to do those shows, the directors that will be guiding the vision for each show, in

particular, the actors that will be bringing they work closely with the production team that

brings all the design elements to life. They manage the education team, at least here they do.

And yeah, and we work. I've worked closely with artistic associates. I work closely with our

executive leader, Michael Bahr, our Executive Managing Director. I help, I mean, because of the

structure of this place, I get to help with the strategic planning of the overall organization. And I

get to have my hands involved in a lot of things. So, so yeah, it's a pretty but in addition to

that, the artistic director might direct a show, may act in a show, and they might run a new

play program. The list goes on and on and on. It's quite a lot. The difference between here and

Creede Rep. I mean, there's a lot of similarities, to be honest. I mean, one is one difference,

though, is this organization is five times larger, the budget, the amount of employees, the

amount of audience, everything is five times larger, and so that you feel that difference in

many different ways. So that's, that's the, in a nutshell, the biggest difference. But end of the

day, we're telling stories that we want our audience to care deeply about, that we want to

create memories for our audience, for no matter you know who they are, where they're coming

from, we're hopefully, you know, being a good manager and taking care of our people and

helping them grow and helping ourselves grow. So there's a lot of stuff that does not change,

but I guess at Creede Rep, it was a smaller staff, though, eight eight people versus 25 ish here

and 100 people in the seasonal company, versus 300 here. And sometimes it feels more like

you're trying to what's it called? Steer, you know, like a bigger boat. What's that metaphor like?

Not the Titanic.

Ryan Paul 12:12

Ocean liner versus a motor boat?

John DiAntonio 12:14

Ocean liner. Yeah, I don't want to go to Titanic because there.

Ryan Paul 12:17

Although it's a great musical.

John DiAntonio 12:18

Yeah, there we go. There we go. But yeah, it's yeah, it feels a little more like an ocean liner at

times when it comes to pivoting and shifting.

Ryan Paul 12:31

Let's talk about, is Creede Repertory a Shakespeare based or is it just? Maybe you should

define repertory is first, and then we can go from there.

John DiAntonio 12:43

Yeah, absolutely. So a repertory theater has a couple different definitions, but the one I like to, I

focus on is a theater that has a repertoire of plays that they are switching out in their, they

either have a one theater or multiple theaters, but every night, they're switching out the set

and the costumes and everything and doing a different show the next the next evening, say, or

the next matinee. Actors are perhaps learning two or three or four shows. Designers are

perhaps designing three shows. And so it's a different kind of challenge. Whereas most regional

theaters, you are there on contract for one show, and you are in rehearsals for four weeks, and

then you're in run for three weeks or four weeks, and that's it, and you're doing that show eight

times a week. But in a repertory theater, like at Utah Shakes, you are likely rehearsing three

plays at the exact same time, and you might be a lead in one show, a strong supporting role in

another show, and a spear carrier in the third show. And then once the show's open, you're

running all those shows throughout your entire contract for the most part. In our case with the

Shakespeare plays, for example, each runs in the evening twice a week, and so you never get

too comfortable. It keeps you on your toes in a really wonderful way. Repertory Theater is also

for people who are hard workers and that you know you gotta that's not everyone, right, but it

requires hard work and dedication for all the disciplines that fall into Repertory Theater, and

that's so it's one of the reasons I love it so much. Yeah.

Ryan Paul 14:28

It's also important to note that in the repertory process, it's been my experience that the spear

carrier really is the hinge of the gate. That if you don't have good, as the spear carrier in my

whole life and everything I do, that that's the hinge, right? And if the hinge isn't solid, then the

gate doesn't swing well.

John DiAntonio 14:45

I like that. Yeah, you need someone's got to carry that thing.

Ryan Paul 14:48

Someone's got to carry the spear. So when you, when you came here, I guess the, I mean,

obviously you had done Shakespeare, but, but Shakespeare hadn't been your focus. Is that

true?

John DiAntonio 15:01

So as far as, I have a deep love for Shakespeare, that goes way back when I first was

introduced to theater when I was 16, our teacher, Mrs. Bruno, she introduced us, really, to two

forms of theater, two genres. Shakespeare and improvisation, and so I started a deep love with

both of those. From early on, I participated in the Pittsburgh Shakespeare monologue

competition. I got very, I won it my senior year, and so started foundationally with a deep love

for Shakespeare. I got to study abroad in London for a year at the British American Drama

Academy, which is very focused, focused on the Bard, and seeing, you know, two shows a week

in that incredible city, and just having my mind blown constantly. And then throughout my

regional theater career, often going back to Shakespeare, back to Shakespeare, playing various

Shakespeare roles. But then, yes, when I once I got to my administrative life, Creede is an

amazing place, but Shakespeare was certainly not the focus of that theater. Why not? Maybe

it's, it's delicate, it's a vacation town. Half of our audience came up from Texas. That's not to

say the Texans don't love Shakespeare. Texans, I'm sure, love Shakespeare. But these folks,

well, there was, there was always a little bit of hesitation there, despite my desire to try to, you

know, work it in and whatnot. So, so it was definitely not the focus, but it is such a privilege and

a treat that it now is a huge part of my, of my work, and my my.

Ryan Paul 16:53

So, so when you came here, you had to brush up your Shakespeare. I got a million. I'm

throwing pearls here. So what, I'm curious, what's the monologue that took you over the top in

your senior year? You don't have to do it, because I know your equity, I can't afford to pay you.

But what? What's the monologue that took you over the top?

John DiAntonio 17:15

Yeah, as Launce from two Gentlemen of Verona, with the one with the dog? Where he's got,

you know, and it was, it was bad. Like, I mean, it was all bad looking back. I didn't know

anything about acting. I knew I was terrible. I felt like these early years, I thought you, you

choreographed almost everything you did. But despite that, I guess it was all right because I

did, I guess pretty good in this competition or whatever, not that competition means much in

the arts, but, like, but, but, yeah, looking back, I was like, Oh, that was that was rough, but it

was that early. I was drawn to the pieces that made people laugh. And that's what I was initially

drawn to as an artist, as an actor, and what I thought it was all about. But that has since

expanded in a beautiful way.

Ryan Paul 18:00

I think, I think it's an interesting point is that I, I've often, in my cultural history work, talked

about, you know, that actors generally, are are audience vampires, right? That they feed off the

the energy of the audience, right? If there's a dull crowd or a small crowd, sometimes it's hard

to get the momentum, especially in a comedy and those kinds of things. What really is the role

of an audience to an actor?

John DiAntonio 18:29

On the theater, it's everything. It is what makes theater what it is. In my opinion, it is what

makes every theatrical performance one of a kind, which is what ideally we're striving for

because it's the energy, it's that in combination with other things, but the energy that the

audience is bringing to you, in combination with what the energy your scene partner is bringing

to you and your ability to respond to each other in the moment makes every performance a

little bit different and a little bit fresh and really exciting. And yeah, thank goodness for it,

because that's the one thing that Netflix, Prime, Hulu, they'll never be able to touch it, to my

knowledge, is the liveness of theater, the liveness of Shakespeare. Yeah, it's when you are you

can feel it in the audience, right? Just like you can feel it as a performer, when, when things are

going well, and we were all on the same page and we were all listening, you can feel that

collective lean in in the space, and you know, you are present for an event.

Ryan Paul 19:33

I do need to say that the Eccles APEX Radio Hour's brought to you by Netflix, Prime, and Hulu.

Now showing, just kidding. So very quickly before we go to our next break, I want to, I guess I'm

just thinking about this, that so as an audience member, which you have been obviously as

well, that you have a, I mean, one an audience member has a responsibility, not just to pay for

the ticket. Right, but, but it's not just sit here and say, Okay, now entertain me. Like, do I have

a responsibility to be engaged in that in some way?

John DiAntonio 20:09

That's a really awesome question. I never thought of it, like with that ticket purchase. Is there a

contract, an unspoken sort of contract, in a way? But I'm inclined to say, no. I think you are as

an audience member there, you are. What's the word? You owe nothing in terms of that.

Ideally, the particular production, actors, choices that went into that are inspiring a lean in

effect from you as an audience member, but you don't owe it. I would advise bring more of an

open, lean in mentality, because you'll just have a better time than, you know, lean back,

crossed arms, right? But, um, but that's okay. You can start there, and maybe by the end, we'll

be dancing in the aisles and that, you know, if the show goes right.

Ryan Paul 20:52

Okay, thank you. I'm gonna make this one note here. Yeah, let's take our first break now. As all

of you, those who listen to us know the podcast and the radio that we invite our guests to give

us a selection of songs that mean something to them, and we will we play them. And so the

first song that we're going to listen to here on our first break is one called Last Night by The

Strokes. Can you tell us why you chose this song?

John DiAntonio 21:20

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. So I was big classic rock fan, I love classic rock. And when I went

to high school, 98 to 2002, in my opinion, I hope this isn't a controversial statement, it was a

pretty tough time when it came to rock and roll. I liked rock. It was a time like this was just past

grunge and things like that. So this was a time when the popular music was Britney Spears,

Backstreet Boys, NSYNC. They were all out there. There's really pop music. And in my opinion,

there was not rock that was really that drew me in, that I thought was, I don't know, powerful,

sexy, dangerous, etc. And then all of a sudden, I don't know what it was, junior year or

something, The Strokes came out with Last Night, and it like blew me away. And suddenly, rock

and roll was cool again. And I was like, I need to stay up and find that music video again. I need

to, I need to hear that song. And so for me, the strokes and probably The White Stripes, saved

rock and roll, and that's why I am deeply indebted to that band.

Ryan Paul 22:27

Okay, this is Last Night by The Strokes. *Bring*

Kasen Graff 22:33

All right, that was Last Night by The Strokes. You're listening to the APEX Radio Hour here on

KSUU Thunder 91.1 I'll turn it back to you, Ryan.

Ryan Paul 22:43

Thank you, Kasen. We're here with Utah Shakespeare Festival artistic director John DiAntonio,

and you had one more thing you wanted to say about Strokes.

John DiAntonio 22:50

Yeah, I forgot to add that my band in high school played that song in in the Battle of the Bands

and in the talent show. We were, but we were terrible. The name of our band was The Low

Expectations, which I thought was a great name, but we lived up to it.

Ryan Paul 23:09

And you were the best triangle player in all of Pittsburgh?

John DiAntonio 23:12

I was on the cowbell.

Ryan Paul 23:14

More cowbell, more cowbell. What did you play?

John DiAntonio 23:17

I played sing, I was the singer. So that tells you just how bad we were. Yeah, it was, it was

rough. It was, yeah, no.

Ryan Paul 23:24

You may not know this about me, but I played bass guitar. Okay. Let's talk about, we kind of

had this conversation about audiences and actors, what exactly, and I obviously, I realized that

stages are different, and you've been on the Randall stage, at least, giving enough talking

things, and you acted this last season in Taming of the Shrew on the big Engelstad stage. What

can you see from there?

John DiAntonio 23:51

Hmm,

Ryan Paul 23:52

Like, can you see? You can see people.

John DiAntonio 23:55

Yeah.

Ryan Paul 23:55

Right?

John DiAntonio 23:56

Yeah. On the Engelstad stage, you can see, certainly, for the first act of the play. You can see

everything. You can see just about every audience member. You can look into their eyes, and

it's because the sun is still setting. Once the sun goes down and the theatrical lights are

providing all the light. It does get a little bit harder to see them. But in the first three rows you

can, you can easily connect with those folks. And this is Shakespeare, where characters have

soliloquies where they talk to the audience. So that is part of the, you know, part of the

requirement is being able to see them, yeah.

Ryan Paul 24:28

So what happens when, when the show goes wrong, and I'm not talking like, you know, the Play

That Goes Wrong where everything's gonna fall apart, but, but like when, when you as a, as an

actor, or is in the collaborative group, someone's off, or even the audience isn't there. Like,

what does that? What happens?

John DiAntonio 24:49

Well, you seek refuge, refuge and the eye contact of your scene partners. You can. I mean, you

do, you can. You can see that in each other's eyes. You know. So when it's off, and but that's

also where the answer is, to the solution in my opinion. You double down. You need to

Buddhism. You need to let go of that need for the audience's reaction, and you need to focus in

on what your your character wants and needs from the people around them. And you need to

double down on that, trying to get it maybe in a slightly different way than you ever have

before, but focus on that, and that will get everyone focused on the right stuff, and suddenly

the audience will perhaps start leaning back in. But yeah, I mean, I've been in, I've been in a

few shows where things go awry. Yeah. I mean, to name, maybe a quick story, or.

Ryan Paul 25:41

Sure, please do. I mean, I don't wanna.

John DiAntonio 25:41

Yeah, was in a world premiere of a play called Good on Paper by George Brandt. George

Brandt's a great playwright who wrote Grounded and all these extraordinary plays, and he

wrote this very, very silly romantic comedy called Good on Paper about a, what's one of those

people that does the sketch, a sketch artist for a police station or something, right? And one of

the sketches comes to life because she thinks it's the perfect man, and the perfect man comes

to life and becomes in this romantic comedy. Anyway. But the problem is that is then all these

other criminals she sketched also come into life, come to life, right? And at the end of the play,

I was going to have to fight one of these criminals that's in her apartment, and.

Ryan Paul 25:42

Because you were the man that came to, you were the good man.

John DiAntonio 25:45

I am the good man that came to came to life and and so I was defending her, or something like

that. And so I had to fight one of these murderers, these criminals. And my cue is I'd look under

the bed where I know a large bat is supposed to be for this battle. And the bad guy has a large

kitchen knife, you know, big, big kitchen knife, and I have a bat, and I reach under the and

there's nothing there. And I get down, and I look, and there's nothing under the bed. There is

no bat. And I was like, this is going to be very bad in just a second. Like, I and they're talking,

I've got 15 seconds before the fight begins. I know there's a trap door under the bed, so I crawl

under the bed, exit the trap door, go backstage, and I am searching for this bat. Desperately. I

cannot find the bat, and I'm asking stage hands, where's the bat? Where's the bat? No one can

find the bat. We found a spoon, a six inch spoon, just the tiniest little baby spoon. And I emerge

from the bed just in time for the cue for the fight, and like, en garde, and I've got my spoon,

and I look into the eyes of Logan, who's playing the murderer, and he's like, are we doing this?

And I'm like, we're doing this. And so a battle ensued, and I'll say it was very, very hard to keep

that one locked in, to not be dying of laughter in that moment, but we found a way, and we

didn't have any cuts, and we I survived. And to be honest, the audience could tell something

fun was happening. So if something goes wrong, you gotta yes and it and you gotta try to find a

silver lining. You know, that's what you got to try to do.

Ryan Paul 27:58

And you you rely on the professionalism and the help of the person in the scene with you.

John DiAntonio 28:04

Absolutely, yeah, it's an ensemble.

Ryan Paul 28:06

And you have been, I guess. I don't know blessed is the right word, but it probably is, to have

some good scene partners, including one this last season.

John DiAntonio 28:16

I think I know who you're talking about.

Ryan Paul 28:18

That was me handing off to you to reveal that, because I could, but it would be better if you did.

John DiAntonio 28:24

No, I'm just joking. I got to play opposite Caitlyn, Caitlyn Wise. Caitlyn Wise DiAntonio, who I'm

also married to in real life. But she was Kate to my Petruchio. I was Petruchio to her, Kate, more

like it. And, man, what a treat that was, yeah, we, we've, we've, like any married couple, we've

been through a lot together. We've acted opposite each other many times. And for anyone who

knows Kate and Petruchio and the wooing scene, it is one of the greatest scenes ever written.

And it's like a third of the way through the play that they finally see each other. This huge build

up, and finally they, they meet, and it, you know, it's one of those moments in life where their

life will be forever changed from that moment on. And getting to, you know, have done this

whole show, and then to get to look at her and be like, here we go, let's do this scene. And

when you have that level of trust with your fellow actor, and you don't have to, of course, be

married to the person to have that, it's a really beautiful thing, because you are in the moment,

and it is live, and you are responding to each other, and it is, it's what makes theater theater.

So that was, that was quite the privilege to be able to do that.

Ryan Paul 29:31

Kind of like you and I right now, right? I mean, we're in the moment.

John DiAntonio 29:34

Yeah, it's, we're trying.

Ryan Paul 29:36

A little different. Not as good, yeah. So what was interesting for me that last season talking

about that play is that in a previous iteration of the show, a married couple had done it, and

that had all been about the marketing, right? This couple is married and everything else but,

but that was not the case this time, I think, for probably wise reasons. And what was so exciting

is. You'd talk to people who who didn't know you two were actually married, and it and it in and

it was this wonderful moment of, I've got to go see this again. I've got to see this differently. It's

like you now know the ending of the Sixth Sense, and you have to go see it again to see all the

clues and everything else. So I think it was a brilliant, brilliant idea. Where did you two meet?

John DiAntonio 30:21

We met in grad school at the National Theater Conservatory in Denver, Colorado. So we we

spent three years together studying acting there at the Denver Center, the big theater there,

and we fell in love halfway through that program. We like to joke, but it's not a joke. Is that our

so our movement class, a lot of any theater people know you take a movement class, but ours

was a little different, because it was focused on low flying trapeze. So we were swinging

through the air in our movement class, and our very first kiss was upside down on a trapeze

Spider Man style was our very first kiss. So that was kind of fun.

Ryan Paul 30:58

Was she Spider Man, or were you Spider Man?

John DiAntonio 31:00

Oh, boy. Let me think about this. I was upside down, so I guess that would, does that mean I'm

Spider Man? I would that would mean I'm Spider Man, and she's, what's, what's?

Ryan Paul 31:08

Mary Jane?

John DiAntonio 31:09

Yeah. Mary Jane, yeah yeah yeah.

Ryan Paul 31:10

So I think that she's a brilliant person and a brilliant actress, but I think it's a great thought

about being I would assume that in certain shows like Taming of the Shrew or other more

challenging pieces, in that way, that having people that you trust is pretty essential to that

experience.

John DiAntonio 31:31

Yeah, I mean, I think it's but regardless of the show, whether it's a comedy, a farce, a deeply

emotional, vulnerable drama, we're always striving towards an ensemble with deep trust,

because if you don't have that, there's a real ceiling on on where that show is going to go. So

that's built on trust, that's built on vulnerability, that's built on just a good culture, and

hopefully not too much ego and etc, and maybe just experience and time. But it can also, you

can build that in three weeks, you know, just getting to know someone and starting. Because

the theatrical process is, it's an intense one. It's weird. You get to know people more like

siblings in a short amount of time. It's, it's very magical in that sense, and then those

relationships might stick for a very long time.

Ryan Paul 32:23

Who facilitates that? I mean, who's responsible for building that that ensemble? Is that the

director? Is it the cast? I mean, who ultimately is responsible for building that work?

John DiAntonio 32:34

I would say,

Ryan Paul 32:36

The trust, I mean.

John DiAntonio 32:37

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, first the director. The director has the most, maybe the most, effect

on the culture of a rehearsal space. So just how they just the way they govern themselves, will,

you will feel it in the room. But also, I might say the leads, the leading they see, you know,

leading man, leading woman of a show. And I remember one of my teachers said to me one

time when I was maybe being rebellious and not so great at the time or something, he was like,

You're a leading man. Do you know what that means? And I said, I'll play the lead roles, right?

And he's like, No. He said the leading man was the leading man of the company. So lead, lead

them, you know. And so we'll in a show, you'll often look to those people that have the most

lines. It just sort of happens often, and then maybe people might follow suit with the energy

that they're bringing. So, yes.

Ryan Paul 33:33

Interesting idea. So we, we've talked about, I mean, you talked about pivoting a little bit. Let's

talk about one of the big challenges of of the theater landscape in certainly my lifetime and

yours, and that was COVID. Like so you were Creede when COVID happened. And I know what

happened here, but what, how did Creede respond to that, and how did they come out of that?

John DiAntonio 33:56

Yeah, if you don't mind, I'm just going to get in fetal position under the desk for a little bit,

because you're bringing back some extremely tough.

Ryan Paul 34:02

That's what I want to do. I want to take you there and help you out.

John DiAntonio 34:04

I love that. Yeah, no, just like every theater we felt, we felt it so hard, and we're facing weekly

impossible decisions. But how? So anyway, so how we tackled it? Just like every theater, I had

to call the 100 people in our company in April, or whenever it was March or April, and say, I'm

so sorry I don't have a job for you that summer of 2020, so that sucked. But then that first

summer, we did a couple things. We leaned into our educational program, because legally we

were still allowed to do that, wrote a promenade outdoor show called Hansel or Gretel. And it

was this lovely, you would follow your Hansel or Gretel on a promenade, you know, through

various stations and scenes and whatnot. And so that was a load of fun. The staff also, you

know. We focused in a little bit on some of our work around equity and things like that. We read

some collective books together because we had time for the very first, first time ever, and so

we got to get on the same page around like that kind of work. And on a personal note, I shot a

feature film that summer because I had time. So that was exciting. But, you know, that's what

we did. And then, but then our 21 season, we did an outdoor season for the very first time, and

we did that at 9000 feet elevation in the mountains of Colorado. And so I learned, it was a

crucible of learning what weather is like at 9000 feet, it's intense. Yeah. Man, COVID is tough,

but outdoors, outdoor theater can be even more stressful. And you know that that can be true

here at Utah. Shakes with with smoke, with fires, with constant rain, with lightning, policies,

etc. But yeah, we did our very first outdoor season, and our in our only outdoor season. And

actually it was, it was beautiful. The San Juan Mountains were the backdrop of that stage. And

you know, our audience had to sort of like we did. They had to distance across that park where

we were. But I think everyone recognized that it was a special thing happening that summer

that we all needed. So that's how we pivoted. And then 2022, we were back inside, thankfully

with way more, way more safety protocols and health protocols than we ever had before, and

just when we thought it's going to get better, all theater people know 2022, was the year that

almost broke us all. That was, that was the tough year with COVID, a number of COVID cases

and things like that. And we certainly felt that at Creede Rep.

Ryan Paul 36:36

So what? What is the, what is the lesson that you learned as an artistic director? What's the one

thing you take away from the COVID experience?

John DiAntonio 36:49

Well, the shift, there was an industry shift, which I think is a good one, and some of us, old

school people are still at the crossroads of it. But so there's this old school mentality of the

show must go on, right? The show must go on. And how did that manifest itself? Performers

would never miss a show. You're going on vom, you're running off stage to vomit, and you're

coming back on right? Like, but we realized that that mentality has had a real cost and

whatnot, and. And COVID just made us realize, wait, wait a minute. We can. We can find

different we can. We can take care of people more. We can have a little more humanity. We

can have a little more grace. We can have a sick day things like that, which I think is good for

the industry at the end of the day. So that that was one of the biggest takeaways. But the other

is just this fighting mentality of we have to we've our industry literally felt like on the chopping

block, so we had to fight for it and and we had to pivot and move and adapt and whatnot, and

and so I think once you've been through something like that, you learn a bit of what you're

made of. So that's cool.

Speaker 1 38:05

Cool. Let's take our next break. And I'm glad you chose the song, incidentally, because it's the

title of my autobiography, Good Times, Bad Times. But this is a song Good Times, Bad Times,

by Led Zeppelin. Can you tell us why you chose this song?

John DiAntonio 38:20

Sure. So I chose this so Led Zeppelin everyone. What's your favorite band? What's your favorite

band? Well, I answer Led Zeppelin. So I knew I had to have a Led Zeppelin song. Good times

Bad times is certainly not my favorite Led Zeppelin song, but the reason I picked it is because

it's the first, it's the number one track from their first album, Led Zeppelin One. And to me, it's

just such a an incredible start. It's so aggressive, it's in your face, and it says, "Welcome. Rock's

about to change. Buckle up." And I just those, when those artists come along, or those albums

or those movies or those plays come along that change everything after it, I love that. And so I

wanted to recognize the very first song on that album.

Ryan Paul 39:01

All right, this is Good Times, Bad Times by Led Zeppelin. *Bring*

Kasen Graff 39:08

All right, that was Good Times, Bad Times by Led Zeppelin here on the APEX Radio Hour. Turn it

back to you, Ryan.

Ryan Paul 39:16

Thank you, Kasen. We're here with Utah Shakespeare Festival artistic director, John DiAntonio,

and student producers Cate Schaerer, Lauren Bird and Kasen Graff. So let's talk briefly about a

couple of the other projects that you're doing, that you've done, besides here at the festival

and other places. You mentioned a film that I think recently was at the Sedona Film Festival,

right? Do you wanna tell us about that?

John DiAntonio 39:39

Yeah, it was just playing last weekend at the Sedona International Film Festival. It's film called

What She Carried, What She Carried. And I mean the basic like two sentence premise, what it's

about. It's a period piece set in 1869 in Colorado territory, and there's a cholera outbreak in a

remote mining camp, and our lead character has to flee that camp to survive, but she's eight

months pregnant and has her one and a half year old child with her, and she has to travel

through 97 miles of Colorado wilderness to try to get to the nearest town before she delivers

that child. So it's a survival movie, but it deals with the strength of motherhood and the

tenacity of motherhood. And it's, you know, was shot during 2020, that summer. And so for me,

it became sort of a processing, cathartic piece, you know, when dealing with this pandemic.

And what can we glean from this challenge?

Ryan Paul 40:34

Did you play cholera?

John DiAntonio 40:36

I did. I was the wrath of cholera. No, I was the husband of the lead character who didn't make it

out of the camp. I'll say that. So I was just acted for a moment, but I was mostly behind the

camera.

Ryan Paul 40:47

So can we find that anywhere? Is it still on in the screen only at film festivals?

John DiAntonio 40:51

It's still in the festival circuit. We go to Durango next, in two weekends, but eventually it will be

up on some kind of streamer, on Amazon Prime or something. It'll be on one of those, one of

those, one of those streamers that we were dissing earlier.

Ryan Paul 41:04

We'll be good audiences. So one of the things that I've, I've liked as I've studied the history of

the festival and is this idea of the the constant reseeding of the garden. I guess that's probably

not the best metaphor, but the idea of new playwrights and new plays and and constantly, not

just doing the old stuff, but but re I'm just gonna say refertilizing, but again, that's not a good

metaphor. You know what I'm talking about, the new play programs. And Creede had one of

those too, is that right?

John DiAntonio 41:34

That's right.

Ryan Paul 41:34

And you are a playwright also. And one of the ones, as I was looking through the list that really

struck me based upon my own work, is Kind of Red. Can you talk about that?

John DiAntonio 41:45

Yeah, that was a play I wonderfully got to develop there and then have produced there before I

was on the staff. So that's a play I wrote. It's called Kind of Red. And so what that play is about

is it's a young jazz trumpet player named Rick in New York City, a good old Catholic boy. He's

down on his luck. He's at a low point, and he prays to his patron saint, Lucy, for guidance. And

there happens to be an episode of I Love Lucy playing in the background. Some signals get

crossed up top, and Lucille Ball pops into his life instead. And so from that point on, it becomes

a romantic, sort of comedy, inspiring piece about finding your muse again once you're sort of

off that path. Yeah. And also about the passing of the torch of actually what you were saying,

it's about the torch passing when it comes to inspiration and when it comes to creativity and

the creation of new work.

Ryan Paul 42:43

So do, has that been produced other places? I mean, we're, we're not seeing we're not going to

see it. I mean, I guess, I guess. How does one access that?

John DiAntonio 42:53

You just got to text me and I'll email it to you. No, that one that was one of those, like many, many, a new plays still looking for its second production. But wonderfully, we we worked with

Lucy Arnez, the daughter, daughter of Lucille Ball, CBS, who owns the rights to the scripts, to

find out all the rules we had to follow in order to do that story. And we followed them. And so

we were very lucky to tell that really, really fun story. And, yeah, it's a, it's a wild one.

Ryan Paul 43:23

So what inspires you about writing plays? I mean, what? What inspires you? But I really, I guess

the real question is, what inspires you about what you do?

John DiAntonio 43:33

Hmm, I'm not. I'm a, I'm a good writer, that man, the great writers you know you you got to,

you interviewed Lauren Gunderson, right? Who was in here a few months back and whatnot.

Like, those are the people that I that I am in complete awe of. Probably what I'm drawn to

about writing is the fact that it does push me. It does take me completely out of the comfort

zone. There's a fair amount of failures, and then victories, and then setbacks, and then

victories. So it's, it's one of those challenges that requires growth, and I love, I'm one of those

people that loves that. So that's why I'm drawn to writing. And I'll say, when you do tap into the

creative mood and it's going well, and you feel like the characters are talking to you, and it's

flowing. Man, is that a good feeling. So, yeah.

Ryan Paul 44:26

So. Sorry, I got a frog in my throat too. When you're doing that, and I would imagine that in

any, sorry, any creative process where, where do, where do we get the how do you overcome

the block there?

John DiAntonio 44:51

Yeah, well, it's trust. Is like faith, trust, whatever word you want to say. A, jump and the net will

appear. You have to you, well, a couple things. A, if you've done your homework. I think some

people maybe just write from their gut, but if you, if you've done some, some, you know,

creating of the structure, the scaffolding of where you're going, you have that to lean upon. You

know where the act beat, you know ends here. You know where the, what the ending of the

play might be, so you have that to hold on to, but it's just an exercise in trust and that. And

usually the first writing, first hour of writing, is complete garbage, no matter what. So you

always have to push through that first hour. And it's all about rewriting too. At least for me,

when I think of like, maybe Shakespeare didn't have to do that much rewriting, I don't even

know. Like, it makes me want to just jump out of a window or something like that. Like, you

know, he probably didn't, you know what I mean, he probably, these things were probably

divine. You know what I mean? Like, he, he created, there's some rewriting, I'm sure, and some

adjustments. But, like, but, but they were pretty baked in, I bet. But I'm one of those rewrite it

80 times type playwrights. I wish I wasn't, but I am.

Ryan Paul 46:05

So you've been, have you ever been surprised about where things end up?

John DiAntonio 46:11

Oh yeah, that's yes, yeah. And you hopefully, yeah, you create a structure and then, you know

it's going to go elsewhere. The structure just helps you through some of the tough times. But if

it's going well, there's going to be surprises, and you're going to discover that surprising yet

inevitable ending that for you will also be surprising yet inevitable, so.

Ryan Paul 46:29

Is that the same process that, in some ways, you translate when you're directing a show? That,

I mean, you, have you ever been you've been cast to direct this show? Have you ever been

surprised about where it ends up?

John DiAntonio 46:41

Oh, yeah. I mean, I mean, I think in an ideal world, if your room is one of discovery and

openness and best idea wins, no matter who it's coming from, even the director. My God, I

hope you're getting surprised on a daily basis, like great surprises. That's the, but those are the

best rooms. So that's what you're striving for. You got to prep like mad, of course. You've got to

prep like wild, but, but, man, yeah, if we're not having surprises and discoveries, then I'm going

to be something. I'm going to be an engineer.

Ryan Paul 47:12

So part of it is the the anticipation of what comes next, right? I mean, I guess we talk about

like, you know, you've often heard people say, like, what keeps you up at night. But I also think

the more interesting question is, what gets you out of bed in the morning, right? I mean, I mean

in this job that you have, which I'm sure can be at times mind numbing, at times very

challenging, at times very frustrating, you know, what? What? Really, what keeps you going?

Because I would imagine an actor, what keeps them going is the new surprise every night that

people are going to stand up and applaud and, you know, throw roses or whatever, but, but as

an artistic director, really, that's really, in some ways, making the sausage. In some ways,

what? What keeps you moving forward that way?

John DiAntonio 47:59

It's hard, but you gotta, like any job, probably, try to always remember what, quote, unquote,

the most important thing, the thing that is easy to lose perspective on because of the sausage

making. For me, it's a few things in the theater. It's most core, like, I've always felt that public

speaking, speaking in front of a group, is a great privilege, and there is something special about

that and that, and this idea of storytelling, sharing is sacred thing, and that's those are kind of

what theater is built on. But also, to get a little more specific, theater, you know, you get to

watch humans on stage. We're breathing the same air together, so it's live. And you get to see

humans make choices, make mistakes, find success, experience an emotion that maybe you've

never felt, make a huge mistake, and then go down a rabbit hole that is not good. So you have

this incredible opportunity to learn about being a human, learn how to human better, but to do

it live. And you get to do it with 300, 400, 900 people sitting around you. And then you have a

memory, and you create an event, and you get to affect what's happening on that stage. So

just try to remember that. And then, as a result of that, we're creating memories for families,

for folks coming out, making long trips to us. We're introducing people to Shakespeare for the

very first time. And what a privilege is that? And we're making a living in the arts, and how

great is that? I got to pinch myself and remind myself sometimes how lucky I am to do what I

do.

Ryan Paul 49:47

And you also teach the greatest life lesson that sometimes the spoon beats the butcher knife.

Sometimes the spoon beats the butcher knife.

John DiAntonio 49:58

It sure does.

Ryan Paul 49:59

Let's take our final break before we go back to our last segment. This is a song that, speaking

of great writers, this is by The Beatles. The song you chose was, Drive My Car. Why did you

choose this song?

John DiAntonio 50:11

So I drop my son, my four year old, Sebastian, Bash, at the daycare every day, and I drive a

2007 Honda Civic. And there's a CD player, and I've got a stack of CDs that are all destroyed on

the back, except for one. I think it's Rubber Soul by the Beatles. And Bash, because he's four,

he loved the main lyrics, like, Baby, you can drive my car. And so he likes to imagine the song

as a baby driving a car. Also, we have a banter that he calls me a baby, even though he knows

I'm an adult and I'm an old man getting older every day, but he likes to call me a baby. And so

the fact that this he, I love, that me and my son have a banter. Banter is like my favorite thing

in the world. And so this song aligns with the banter I have with one of my wonderful kids.

Ryan Paul 50:54

Okay, this is Drive My Car by The Beatles. *Bring*

Kasen Graff 51:00

All right, that is Drive My Car by The Beatles. You're listening to the APEX Radio Hour here on

KSUU Thunder 91.1 I'll turn it back to you, Ryan.

Ryan Paul 51:09

Thank you, Kasen. We're just wrapping up with our good friend John DiAntonio, the artistic

director of the Utah Shakespeare Festival. We're in the studio with Kasen, Cate and Lauren, our

student producers, and we're in our final segment of the program, which we call the joy

segment. And so John Antonio, what are you currently watching, reading, listening to or playing

that is bringing you joy?

John DiAntonio 51:34

Okay, well, I'll go last night, my wife and I watched the SNL 50 year documentary that focuses a

lot on the audition process for these, you know, five decades worth of incredible comedic

performers, and so that was such a fun look inside that process. It was admittedly also very

stress inducing, feeling the stress that they were feeling for their five minute audition with very

little guidance as to what they were going to do in that and and infamously, the audience is

dead silent for five minutes for the most part and so anyway. But I got great joy out of seeing

them and hearing their stories and what finally getting on that cast meant to these incredible

performers.

Ryan Paul 52:21

And where can you stream that?

John DiAntonio 52:23

That's on Peacock.

Ryan Paul 52:23

On Peacock. SNL, 50th anniversary documentary. All right. Cate Schaerer. What are you

currently watching, reading, listening to or playing that is bringing you joy?

Cate Schaerer 52:32

Well, I'm a big SNL fan, so I've been keeping up with all the 50th and it is a great documentary.

There's one of the episodes is just about the more cowbell sketch. It's perfect. But yesterday, it

was Johnny Cash's birthday, and so I decided to watch Walk the Line last night, and I've been

listening to Johnny Cash today, and was listening to I've been everywhere. And I don't know if

it's our Cedar City, but he does say Cedar City, and it brings me a lot of joy to think that he's

talking about our Cedar City.

Ryan Paul 52:58

I told Cate this, this very morning, as we were talking about this, that I saw Johnny Cash in

concert when I was in graduate school on a river boat casino in Tunica, Mississippi. So there

you go. Lauren Bird. What are you currently watching, reading, listening to or playing that is

bringing you joy?

Lauren Bird 53:13

So I've been listening to the musical Natasha, Pierre, and the Great Comet of 1812 it has really

weird music, but it brings me joy because it reminds me of my friend that introduced me to it

and who I performed a number from it with.

Ryan Paul 53:26

Was that friend named Josh Groban?

Lauren Bird 53:28

No. Alas, Genevieve.

Ryan Paul 53:33

Which is probably Italian for Josh, I don't know. All right. Kasen Graff. What are you currently

watching, reading, listening to or playing that is bringing you joy?

Kasen Graff 53:40

So last, not last week. Yesterday was SUU's University of the Parks expo, and so I spent last

week looking into not just National Parks trivia, like questions, but I've been doing deep dives

into all of these trivia questions so that I could do a write up, really quick write up on each of

the questions, because I'm the one who wrote the trivia, and I wanted to have more information

if anybody had questions. And that was a lot of fun to do a deep dive on all these people who I

haven't thought about since I took that class four years ago now. So yeah, that was bringing me

a lot of joy was putting together that trivia and the script I wrote for it.

Ryan Paul 54:16

Except for that last question.

Kasen Graff 54:18

What was wrong with the last question?

Ryan Paul 54:20

Yeah.

Kasen Graff 54:21

Anyway. How about you Ryan? What are you watching, reading, listening to or playing that's

bringing you joy?

Ryan Paul 54:26

I am watching finishing up something. I am going to London, England over spring break, doing a

study, leading a community trip, study abroad on World War Two and aviation in England. And

so I've been thinking about that more as I've been pairing preparing some content. But one of

the films that came my way that someone recommended was called quintessentially British.

And essentially it's about an hour and 40 minutes of just the quirky British stuff, pretty mellow,

you know, not a lot of plot points, but they talk about hatters and tailors and garden shows, and

it's just this fun, relaxing, weird idea of what it means to be quintessentially British, and that is

what is bringing me joy. And I should say that the last question Kasen put on referenced me as

the teacher of the National Parks, which he didn't show me and was admittedly a little

embarrassing, but yeah, because I am not an actor. I'm not used to that kind of stuff. So, thank

you, John DiAntonio, for being here. We're grateful that you were able to take the time to talk

with us. Thank you for all that listened. We are going to go out with one song, the one of the

songs he chose, called Boots of Spanish Leather. This is by the great Bob Dylan. Can you tell

me why you chose this song?

John DiAntonio 55:47

Yes, absolutely. So. Well, yeah, it's a weird so this this movie I referred to, called What She

Carried. This song, I was editing it, the movie for two years, and I had spec music in place. And

this song was the final song in the movie for two years. So I've been listening to this song for

two years, and it was a perfect, perfect song for the ending. Of course, I was never going to be

afford, to be able to afford the rights for it, so it was removed eventually. But Bob Dylan is just

such an incredible poet, and it's, it's just got this beautiful sadness. And I love, I also, I have a

deep love for songs with beautiful sadness, and I think that's sort of what encapsulates what

this one's about, so.

Ryan Paul 56:31

Okay, well, thank you, John. Thank you for all that to listened to us today. And in the words of

the great American poet Bill Withers, "I wish you well." This is Boots of Spanish Leather by Bob

Dylan.