Playwright Lauren Gunderson spoke as part of the Eccles A.P.E.X. series and joins us on the podcast.
Reese Whitaker 00:01
You are listening to the APEX Hour hosted by Ryan Paul on KSUU Thunder 91.1 this show allows
more personal time with our guests, allowing them to give us their stories and opinions. We will
also give you new music to listen to. Hoping you enjoy some new sounds and genres. Welcome
to this episode of The APEX Hour.
Kasen Graff 00:20
Welcome to the APEX Radio Hour. I'm producer Kasen Graff and I'm joined with APEX Director
and Professor of History, Ryan Paul and our special guest, Lauren Gunderson. I'm turning it over
to you, Ryan.
Ryan Paul 00:30
Thank you, Kasen, and Thank you Lauren for being here. We're so grateful to have you here at
SUU. First of all, I should tell you that as part of one of your many, many not tell you this. You,
of course, know this, but your many accomplishments. Lauren Gunderson, if you don't know, is
considered, is one of the most produced playwrights in America. There's there's generally not a
year that goes by, a month that goes by, maybe even a day that not one of your plays is being
performed or in production. Is that true?
Lauren Gunderson 01:01
You know, it's hard to know exactly, but that sounds about, right?
Ryan Paul 01:03
Ryan Paul 01:03
So we've been fortunate. One of her plays, Silent Sky, is being produced this season at the Utah
Shakespeare Festival. They've done another play of hers, Book of Will. So we want to talk about
that. Before we do what I would, what I generally like to start with, is kind of a how we get to
now question. So can you tell us a little bit about where you're from and how you got to do
what you do?
Lauren Gunderson 01:26
Sure, sure. So I grew up in Decatur, Georgia, which is right outside of Atlanta. It is now quite a
theater town, but back then it was a little bit more burgeoning. But what I loved so much about
growing up there was, I mean, I had access to Shakespeare companies, contemporary theaters,
and as a little kid, I just knew right away that I wanted to be on stage doing some sort of
theater. It came a little bit later in middle school and high school that I put together that what I
saw missing on the stages, particularly roles for women and girls in various parts of humanity, I
would have to write them or be a part of a new class of writers who were tackling those stories
and filling the gaps. And so that started in high school, and then I went to grad school at NYU,
undergrad at Emory University, grad school at NYU for playwriting, screenwriting and TV
writing, and started a career in the American theater, which has been a source of incredible joy,
a lot of challenge and just fascinating relationships and the kind of special, kind of triumph that
artists get to experience with a job well done. So that sort of is where I live in California now.
I'm in San Francisco, and that's sort of me.
Ryan Paul 02:49
So has it always been, I mean, I realize there was a connection to the arts. Has it always been
about writing plays? Or did you want to be an actor first, or some other kind of director.
Director, what?
Lauren Gunderson 03:02
Sure, definitely actor first, I think that is most people's gateway, is being given a script or given
a role pointed on the stage and told to project. That was certainly me, and I loved it, as they
say, bitten by the bug and and really feeling the the power and the the the joy of being on
stage. So I started as an actor. I did a lot of professional productions when I was 13, 14, 15 in
Atlanta, and that sort of allowed me to see what that professional theater experience was like.
Also, I started to encounter more and more new plays, which at that point in my life, I didn't
really know that there were that many living playwrights. I didn't really know that we kind of
kept, kept writing plays after Tennessee Williams and Lorraine Hansberry and, and so clicking
into that the community and the ecosystem for new plays was a big, a big thrill, a thrill in it,
and quite an inspiration. So start as an actor, but I do think it affects how I write. I mean, it
affects I always as I'm writing and working on something, rewriting and reading it aloud and
lifting the words off of the screen and into the air. I want to write actable, rich roles that actors
gravitate to. So that's a big part of how I found writing and how I still do it now.
Ryan Paul 04:16
So it's interesting that, I mean, I've in my work, you know, with the Education Department of
So it's interesting that, I mean, I've in my work, you know, with the Education Department of
the Shakespeare Festival, we always talk to actors about, oh, well, I knew this director was an
actor, so they understood my language, and I had never thought about this idea of a playwright
who was also an actor. I mean, that's there's a connection there, right?
04:37
Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And part of it is, my plays in particular, you can see this with Silent
Sky, certainly with Book of Will and others, is there is a rhythm, a musicality to my to my
writing that I'm quite proud of, and I'm quite particular about so I wield punctuation on the page
in a certain way that tries to aim an actor and directors towards that rhythm, a pacing, an
approach to language that isn't always poetic. I mean, most of the great characters to feel
organic and lived in, need to feel a bit messy and aren't entirely articulate all the time. So
trying to write that is actually harder than writing poetry. The great, beautiful language is is a
form of sculpture, but the the lived in language of great characters that feel real and sort of
dropped in, that is a different kind of writing. That's something that requires, again, this kind of
a combustion and the, the messiness of human language when it fails us, when it is half
finished, when a cutoff does more than the full sentence does. So that's a different side of
writing, but that is because I I know what that's like as an actor, to have a line that is too
perfect and sort of discounts the humanity of a character. If they have, if they know exactly
what they mean and can say it so beautifully, then what's the struggle here? Whereas, if it's
very different for, to write something that gives the actor a chance to not know yet how to say
what they feel, and that's a great space for an actor to really fully embody the human
condition. So there's that, there's a bit of both, but that certainly is in a large part, because I
know what it's like to say the lines.
Ryan Paul 06:18
Right. So, it's not, it's not just the construction, it's not just the words that are on the page. It's
the deliberate construction of the grammar and everything that is there, everything around it.
So so when you talk about actors, kind of feeling those words and, and breathing life into those
words, there must have been a time where someone you know breathed? Brothe? Life into
them, when you were like, wait a minute, there's a comma there, or
Lauren Gunderson 06:49
Oh yeah.
Ryan Paul 06:50
You need to think about how this is, I did this on purpose. This is not just a suggestion.
06:55
Oh yeah. And there's so much that my job is also not just what people say, but it is entire world
building, soul building, character building. It's not just the lines, it is the entire story, the reason
building, soul building, character building. It's not just the lines, it is the entire story, the reason
and the journey and the clash of personality. All of that is the purvey of writers. And also one
example is if there's a lot of ways to say I love you, and a stage direction changes how you say
them. So if the stage direction says he actually hates her, and then has to deliver the line, I
love you, that's very different than he's been trying to say this his entire life and says, I love
you. It's also different if you put an ellipse in there, I love you is different than I love you, right?
So you can play with all of this, and this is why the toolbox is so varied in what I do, and it's it
allows for a lot of conversation internally about what exactly do I mean with these words and,
and how do you wrestle them into meaning when it's just the blank page? And a lot of, you
know, black scritches and lines and dots. So part of that is through experimentation with other
actors. And in rehearsal process, we take what's on the page and then test every single corner
of it. And we're going to learn actually, he doesn't need that in monologue at all. All he needs to
do is hold her hand, or all he needs to do is look away from her at this point, or she doesn't
need that that exit. What if she stayed on stage? Like all of that is stuff that I, the first draft of
the play might be there and then through experiment, when we're actually hearing what it
sounds like up and in the room, any of that can go or stay, you know?
Ryan Paul 08:37
So when you type end of play, right? I mean, that's what you type, right? That's the end of play.
Lauren Gunderson 08:42
Typed it this morning.
Ryan Paul 08:43
Is it the play isn't done, it's just written.
Lauren Gunderson 08:50
Yes.
Ryan Paul 08:50
Is that kind of what you're saying?
Lauren Gunderson 08:51
Exactly, yes. Well, said, Yep, exactly it is, um, everything is a draft until opening night, and then
it is still a draft after, until the next production, and then usually it'll be published at that point,
because we've tested it now twice. And every play is a bit of a blueprint, a model for what it
can be. And we want to make sure that model is as accurate and as effective as we can make
it, so that the story comes across as clearly as possible. But certainly that first draft I usually
get to sometime draft 20 by opening night, because it's constantly not just being rewritten or
corrected, but discovered. We're still figuring it out. Wow, we miss this entire moment that she
needs to have, or, oh my gosh, this needs to be followed by that, and we didn't know that yet.
So every change sort of begets another question about what we might be with missing or what
opportunity we could have. So yes, there's it's constant discovery. It's such fun. I love it.
Ryan Paul 09:47
You've mentioned this in our conversations the last few days that we've had a chance to talk.
But there, you have written, in your process, in writing, do you you sit down and say. I mean, I
know you've talked about writing with the end in mind, you know where you want to go, and
you get there as quickly as you can, and then you pit in all of the the detours and the
sightseeing stops and the gas stations and all that other kind of stuff, right? So do you when
you're writing in that way? Do you put the stage directions and, you know, like, "it was a dark
and stormy night," kind of thing. Or do you just write the word, the link, the language, and then
fill in the setting afterwards? What comes first?
Lauren Gunderson 10:28
Yeah, it's all one piece, because I need to know where it's set. To know where it's set changes
what the scene is about, or what it's made of. So all of it is, is of a piece. There is, you know, it's
not an accident when a character enters or exits. It's very, very intentional, and it changes
everybody in that scene. When somebody, a new presence enters. So all of that stuff is, comes,
comes across now in the discovery of it in rehearsal, oh, what if he entered two lines earlier?
What if he entered two lines later? That actually is great experimentation, and affects a lot of
what I do, and I will have to go rewrite based on that if it works or not. So, yes, the stage
directions are a big part of it. And, you know, part of it is trying to figure out, what are all the
options? And the stage directions, like I mentioned, if saying a line that has a different
connotation with a different emotional stage direction attached to it, how we can flip that and
play with it? Yeah. So it's all, it's all part of the grand sign.
Ryan Paul 11:26
Do you do you like? I have you just talked about the fact that you just finished the play ye-,
today, end of play, when you're doing that. Do you like? I have this vision of you walking around
the hotel room and you're in your pink slippers, you know, like reading the words. Do you do
that?
Lauren Gunderson 11:43
Oh, yeah.
Ryan Paul 11:44
Like, and,
Lauren Gunderson 11:45
Yeah, yeah, both, both, both parts, or sometimes one part at a time, but trying to test out
language. And if I've been too precise with something, sometimes you need to muddy it up a
little bit to make it feel lived in, or especially high stakes emotional moments, it's actually we're
actually very rarely articulate at those times and trying to, yeah, make it a bit grittier. But then
sometimes somebody has been wanting to say something for their whole life, and they do know
exactly what they mean and what to say, and that is a different kind of emotional catharsis. So
I love to write both. But yes, when, when I'm walking around working on a scene. It's a lot of
rereading, rereading, rereading again, making sure that some of that tempo and pacing in the
collision of language is captured as much as I can, when it is just me in the computer, and then
you do all of that. So you can get to that first draft, to get that, that first reading with actors,
where you learn a ton.
Ryan Paul 12:36
You know, it's fascinating to think about that, that idea of you writing in a way that like you
mentioned, well, maybe they have never been able to say this over the course of time, which
means to make that really land, you have to build this idea of them not saying it, and us as an
audience understanding that they're not saying it. It's like, Will you kiss already, right?
13:01
Exactly. Oh yeah, love stories are built on exactly that thing. We can't actually have the kiss
until the end.
Ryan Paul 13:06
So I find it interesting. I don't mean, I read a lot. I mean I like to read plays often, as I mean, I
like to watch them, but, but oftentimes, when I read a play, the character, the pictures are
better. That makes sense sometimes in my head, that's like listening to radio versus TV, the
pictures are better?
Lauren Gunderson 13:24
Totally, totally.
Ryan Paul 13:25
And then the challenge is, you see it, and it's like, well, that's not how I imagine. But I think of
like writing dialogue, not just dialogue, but dialect. I mean, like August Wilson, right? He was
very lit. I mean, he writes, I think, very lived in characters. Do you find that challenging? In
writing those kinds of dialects and dialogues that of individuals that aren't your lived
experience?
13:48
Sure, yes, and part of that is having dramaturgical consultants, people working on the plays as
as advisors, and, you know, being able to reach out to a community beyond my own, to if I'm
going to write in from those places. Generally, though, I think it is great to ask yourself, If this is
your story to tell, and there's a lot of them, that there might be a great piece of history that you
find, but is it? Is it yours to tell? And there's been some things I'm like, I love that I cannot wait
for somebody to write that play. It's not going to be me. And then what comes to dialect, I
really don't write the the way language sounds in kind of capturing dialect on the page. I sort of
write the what it what, what it means, and the more you know the actual you know content of
the line and then have the actor discover that through vocal coaching, there's dialect coaches
that help construct and make it sound if it's Scottish or if it's southern or something.
Ryan Paul 14:51
You know, there's an interesting thing that I'm thinking about, and it's a quote that I just saw. I
don't think it's even an attributed quote. It may even be an AI, but it's this idea that behind
every strong person, there's a story that made them that way.
Lauren Gunderson 15:06
Oh, I love that.
Ryan Paul 15:07
Right? And I think it's interesting, as you think about whose story is it to tell? And the stories
you have told, it's like, I, It's starting with the end in mind, right? How did you get to where I
need you to be, or where you need to be. I guess, that makes sense.
Lauren Gunderson 15:22
Yeah, exactly.
Ryan Paul 15:23
So I, let's take our first break, and then I want to come back with with something about
something you've talked about earlier. So as those of you who've listened to the show know
before, or the podcast also, that we ask our, we invite our guests to list us some songs that
mean something to them. So the first song that we're gonna play that you gave us is The
Archer by Taylor Swift.
Lauren Gunderson 15:45
Indeed.
Ryan Paul 15:46
So can you tell us why you chose this?
15:47
You know, I am a sort of new Taylor Swift fan. My sister has been OG from 1989 and I just, I find
her gumption, her strength of, of mind to be really impressive. And I just love the lyrics of of
this song, and sort of how moody and self reflective it is. So I love it. Let's hear some Taylor.
Why not?
Ryan Paul 16:15
The Archer by Taylor Swift.
Taylor Swift 16:26
I say I don't want that, but what if I do? Combat, I'm ready for combat Who could ever leave
me, darling? But who could stay? Dark side, I search for your dark side But what if I'm alright,
right, right, right here? And I cut off my nose just to spite my face Then I hate my reflection for
years and years I wake in the night, I pace like a ghost The room is on fire, invisible smoke And
all of my heroes die all alone Help me hold onto you I've been the archer I've been the prey
Screaming, who could ever leave me, darling? But who could stay? (I see right through me, I
see right through me) 'Cause they see right through me They see right through me They see
right through Can you see right through me? They see right through They see right through me
I see right through me You Combat, I'm ready for combat 'Cause cruelty wins in the movies I've
got a hundred thrown-out speeches I almost said to you Easy they come, easy they go I jump
from the train, I ride off alone I never grew up, it's getting so old Help me hold onto you I've
been the archer I've been the prey I see right through me All the king's horses, all the king's
men Couldn't put me together again 'Cause all of my enemies started out friends Help me hold
onto you I've been the archer I've been the prey Who could ever leave me, darling? But who
could stay? (I see right through me, I see right through me) Who could stay? Who could stay?
Who could stay? You could stay You could stay
Kasen Graff 19:54
That was The Archer by Taylor Swift. You are listening to the APEX Radio Hour here on KSUU.
Thunder, 91.1 I'll turn it back to you, Ryan.
Ryan Paul 20:03
Thank you, Kasen. I should also mention that we're joined in the studio with our colleague,
producer Cate Schaerer and Cormac Bone. We'll talk with them here in a minute. And most
importantly, Lauren Gunderson, America's most beloved playwright. So I do want to ask you
this question. So we talked about how you got to now and acting and things like that. But was
there a moment I like to call, like, the eureka moment, when you realized, like, I remember
when I wanted to be the exact thing, when I wanted to be historian. But when was the what
was the moment? Was there a moment that you say, This is it? You know, Eureka?
20:39
I mean, a lot of it were, they're very private moments for a playwright, feeling like I tried, I
wanted to unlock a scene. It was probably the very first play that I full length play that I ever
finished. I wrote some pretty terrible 10 minute plays, as we all must as playwrights. And then
when I ventured into writing my first full length play. It was a play called Parts They Call Deep,
about the Deep South, and three women driving through the Deep South in a winnebago and I
still love the challenge of that. Going from zero plays to one play is climbing a mountain, and I
didn't know how to end it. I didn't know how to end the play. I knew how to tell the early parts,
and I knew how to, somehow, knew how to write these characters in conflict. And I remember
just kind of not knowing how to end this thing, because it felt impossible to end and then it
occurred to me in the middle of dinner, I was, I think I was probably 15, 16, at dinner, and I just
kind of literally eureka moment of getting up from dinner, "sorry, sorry, excuse me," running off
to my enormous computer back then with a very clicky, clicky keyboard, and, and saying,
"Well, if it's impossible to end, then end it impossibly." And so that was of my first foray into a
very magical realist theatricalism ending, which kind of, instead of being grounded and literal,
like that's not, that's not what theater always is, nor need to be. And so I kind of unleashed the
imagination to end it in this impossible sort of dance across time with letters flying around and
and it unlocked the the ability for me to to trust that the language of theater isn't about
naturalism, always. It is about what feels real to these characters, what feels meaningful. And
that's the that's that's art, right? So that moment when I finished it and I hadn't shared it with
anybody, it wasn't about winning anything. It wasn't about the first production. It was about the
actually, the first end of play that I ever got to write for a full length play was the best feeling
ever.
21:57
So, out of curiosity, I have no context for this average running time of a play. I mean, of your
plays two and a half hours?
22:55
Oh, probably closer to two with an intermission, or 90 minutes without.
Ryan Paul 23:04
So what is the page count there? General?
So what is the page count there? General?
Lauren Gunderson 23:07
Sure. It's anywhere between, you know, 85, 90 pages for a show without an intermission, and
then around 100, 124 to to actually.
Ryan Paul 23:21
And do you get to dictate when the intermission is?
Lauren Gunderson 23:24
Oh, yeah. So yes, yes, nobody puts an intermission where it's not supposed to be.
Ryan Paul 23:28
That's not, that's not a director gets to decide.
Lauren Gunderson 23:30
Oooh if they do, they are fired.
Ryan Paul 23:33
So I think that you are very prolific. That's, that's fair to say.
Lauren Gunderson 23:38
Indeed, yes.
Ryan Paul 23:40
It's backed up and, and I would imagine that even though you are prolific, it is not necessarily
easy all the time. Oh no. And I think that's the challenge is those people that do things very
well make it look easy, but it still work, right? And it is, I would imagine, in some cases,
exhausting.
Lauren Gunderson 24:03
Oh gosh, yes.
Ryan Paul 24:03
How do you, how do you adjust from those moments of exhausting work to I need to be present
to my partner, I need to be present to my family. I need to be present to my life.
24:17
It's hard. I mean, it's hard because I love so much what I do that it never turns off. I'm never
not a playwright. I don't ever really put it to bed. That doesn't mean that I'm not present at my,
you know, son's school play or cooking dinner, you know, doing doing things like that. But I am
always working on something in my mind. It doesn't mean I'm, so the work of a writer, certainly
of a playwright, is different than even other writers, which is that some of our work is in our
minds that most writers would be find commonality there. Much of our work is type, type, type,
and that is not always just a stream of consciousness flow. It is a structuralization of what have
to this scene has to accomplish this. The next thing can do this, so that the end can do this. So
that's kind of somewhere between outlining and, you know, forefronting something, planning
how this will eventually get to this one scene I'm really excited to write. So that's a different
kind of thinking. Then there's the line the dialogue thinking, where, when I'm talking about that
kind of pacing and rhythm, and does it really flow and work? That's a different thing. But all of
that is before we actually get in the rehearsal room, which is where the writing actually begins.
So I always, unfortunately say, once you get to that first draft, now you have. Now you're
starting the process, because that draft is going to go into rehearsal, and that's where you're
going to need to learn all this other stuff. So there's a whole part of a playwright's job. The work
doesn't really begin until you're with actors. Because a play doesn't want to live on a page. It
sort of refuses to. It has to, but it doesn't want to be on the page. It wants to be up and in the
translation from page to stage, we go through so many iterations, so many screeching halts.
That was I have to go back to the hotel room to figure out how to write through that. How to fix
that problem, how to, the play this first act is too long. What do we need to cut? What can we
cut? What can't? This isn't landing. How do I make it better? That line isn't funny. How do we
get rid of it or make it sharper? And so all of the problem solving, part of it kicks in. So all that is
to say there are so many flavors of work to what I do that in some ways it's great. It's not the
same work. Every day I get to jump around. And the work of trying to articulate a brand new
idea is different than the work of trying to fix the 12th draft of something is different than
giving notes to actors that are about to open the show the next night. So the diversity and
variety is really helpful for my enthusiasm, sure, but it is hard, and I just have to kind of sort of
sector off the part of my brain that's always working, and I also but I can't turn it off, and I don't
really want to. And so that means, when I'm at a playground with my boys having fun, I have a
little notebook with me that, in case there's a flash of a phrase or an idea I want to tackle, I will
write it down, or honestly, I have the Google doc apps on my phone so I can open the play that
I'm working on at Google Docs and actually work on it from the playground sometimes. When
they don't need me. Which, they're older now, they don't really. So I'm kind of always working
on something, and I it's sort of the delight of my life. That's my that's what I get to call work.
Lauren Gunderson 27:34
Yep.
Ryan Paul 27:34
You know, it's so when you it's interesting, because we've had an opportunity over the couple
days to see some plays at the Shakespeare Festival and the Utah Shakespeare Festival. And I
noticed that you do have a notebook, and in the dark, you know you're you're writing
something down, and I'm watching the play, and I see out of the corner of my eye. So are we,
first of all, I would imagine you have a lot of these notebooks.
Lauren Gunderson 27:46
Yes.
Ryan Paul 27:46
And secondly, are we ever going to see the collected notebooks of Lauren Gunderson?
Lauren Gunderson 28:03
It may be indecipherable, but yes, yes, I have
Ryan Paul 28:07
Because you're writing in the dark, right?
Lauren Gunderson 28:08
Write in the dark. You know, I did have little pens with lights on them, but they annoy the
people around me, so I gave up on that. Yeah, a lot of it is just snatches of ideas and little bits I
was writing. We saw Much Ado last night, which what a what an amazing thing for your
students and community to have the kind of incredible Utah Shakespeare Festival right here.
I'm deeply jealous and delighted for all of you. But yeah, I was, I was writing down, I'm doing
kind of a riff on Much Ado as a new play right now. And so it's quite, quite helpful to be in
context with this play. And so I was writing down lines that I sort of forgot were in it. And like,
all right, I gotta get Dogberry in there. And I love the line at the very end, which I wanted to put
on the front of the play, because I was reminded of it when Benedick says, "Man is a giddy
thing." Oh, such a great line. So beautiful and perfectly Benedick. So I, yeah, stuff like that that
makes me want to go back into the work I'm doing and think about it in a different way, or
plant a little easter egg for those Shakespeare fans who see my modern version. So yeah, but
yes, 1000s of tiny pens, tiny notebooks, you know, of every every shape and color.
Ryan Paul 29:18
It's interesting that you when you talk about writing, and it's been my, of course, you know, I
don't, I'm not as prolific as you. And I write different stuff, but, but you talk about like, this
don't, I'm not as prolific as you. And I write different stuff, but, but you talk about like, this
needs to be sharper, but being sharper doesn't necessarily mean shorter, like you. You've had
to say this, I need to to make this longer, right? We always talk about editing, but editing isn't
always cutting.
29:40
Cutting. Oh, yeah. A lot of I do, I do encourage playwrights to get proud of the cuts, because
that will always make things. You're definitely not going to waste any more of your audience's
time with a cut. So that's always good. But what I generally mean by sharper is sometimes, it is
not about the always brevity. It is about about rhythm. So there is a certain kind of line that
wants to go Dun, duh, duh, and then there's a line that actually wants to go Dun, ta, da, dun,
ta, da, da right? And even that musicality, I find myself picking a word like, oh, I need a two
syllable word, not a one syllable word. I need a word that starts with a C or a K and ends with a
duh or a tuh, that stuff, that level of precision, certainly with a comedy, but also with a great
insult, with a great, you know, vicious line, you need something that ends with with kind of a
teethy bang. And it's stuff that is, it's sort of hard to articulate what I mean. But if I showed you
two or three different lines, you would be like, Oh yeah, that one's the best one. And it would
be the one that I would be like, that's the best one, correct.
29:46
Because of how it sounds,
Lauren Gunderson 30:48
Because of the actual musical sound, and the kind of lyricism of a consonant versus a vowel.
Yes, you can, you can write plays on that microscopic level. And then, of course, my job also
has to include the macroscope of what is, what was this kid like at two that that we're never
going to see that in this play or even talk about it. But I need to know the stuff that is so, so, so
big.
Ryan Paul 30:58
That is so interesting because you talk about in, I mean, the the idea of, I think the word you
use in Silent Sky is tonality, right? That the stars are music tonality, and now we're also talking
about that, that it's not just about the words on the page, it's how how they sound, right, that
the tone of those words is as critical.
Lauren Gunderson 31:35
Yeah, there's an example in Silent Sky. So the correct word at the time for pants was actually
trousers. Trousers is not funny. Pants is funny. So I had to battle with my dramaturg on the very
world premiere of this show. Was like, well, you know, technically they would say trousers. And
I was like, not funny. No, we're going back with pants. God. Pants is funny. It's one syllable. It
has the T and the P, like, No Pants. Pants is funny. Get trousers out of here.
Ryan Paul 32:01
And it gets a laugh every time.
Lauren Gunderson 32:03
Every single night, every single time.
Ryan Paul 32:04
I think we talked about this is that I, for the first time, after, when I saw it with you the other
day, I'd seen it before, is, you know, she says, we see this big reveal of her in the pants after
she'd complained about them before. But then she says to to, I think, with the sister, well, you
should see their shoes. To me, that's the funny line, right? That's the and I wonder oftentimes,
if you, if you've been an experience where you've said, But wait a minute, you're this laugh is
great, but this laugh is better. Does that ever happen?
Lauren Gunderson 32:33
Yeah, no, for me, the pants is funnier. So that one is more contextually, it sort of sets up the
other laugh. So, yes, sometimes if they are competing, you're gonna have to choose. But for
me, that's the the reveal of the pants is actually, it's not on a line. It's, it's a, you know, it's a
character decision of when, when they do that, but a stage direction, stage direction. Yes,
exactly.
Ryan Paul 32:56
So let's take our second break. This is a song that you have given us Galileo by the Indigo Girls.
Can you tell us why you chose this song?
33:05
So they are from my hometown of Decatur, Georgia. So Emily Saliers, I she was a community
member growing up, and the Indigo Girls are just such a fierce feminist band, still so fantastic.
You might remember in the Barbie movie, one of their songs kind of became resurgently
popular through that movie. But I've been a I've been a fan of theirs for decades. So they are
modern poets,
Ryan Paul 33:30
All right. This is Galileo by the Indigo Girls.
Indigo Girls 33:40
Can any human being ever reach that kind of light I call on the resting soul of Galileo king of
night vision And as the bombshells of my daily fears explode I try to trace them to my youth
King of insight And then I think about my fear of motion Which I never could explain Some other
fool across the ocean years ago Must have crashed his little airplane How long 'til my soul gets
it right King of insight I'm not making a joke You know me I take everything so seriously If we
wait for the time 'til all souls get it right Then at least I know there'll be no nuclear annihilation
in my life time I'm still not right I offer thanks to those before me That's all I've got to say
'Cause maybe you squandered big bucks in your lifetime Now I have to pay But then again it
feels like some sort of inspiration To let the next life off the hook Or she'll say look what I had to
overcome from my last life I think I'll write a book How long 'til my soul gets it right Can any
human being ever reach the highest light Except for Galileo, God rest his soul King of the night
vision, king of insight How long (until my soul gets it right) How long (until my soul gets it right)
How long Galileo's head was on the block The crime was lookin' up the truth And then you had
to bring up reincarnation Over a couple of beers the other night And now I'm serving time for
mistakes Made by another in another life time How long 'til my soul gets it right Can any human
being ever reach that kind of light I call on the resting soul of Galileo king of night vision
Kasen Graff 37:42
All right, that was Galileo by the Indigo Girls. You're listening to the APEX Radio Hour here on
KSUU Thunder 91.1 I'll turn it back to you, Ryan.
Ryan Paul 37:51
Thank you, Kasen. you know I find the Venn, the Lauren Gunderson Venn diagram, to be very
interesting, right? This, this activism and, and this, I want a pigeonhole like not all your plays
are based on science history and those kinds of things,
Lauren Gunderson 38:07
A lot of them are though.
Ryan Paul 38:08
But a lot of them are and, and this, just this overlapping of history and science and presenting
it in a different way. And we've had this conversation off the air, but this idea of, here is a
person, right? You're going to surround them with a couple real people and a couple fictional
real people, if you know what I mean, and, and you're going to give them a different story, or,
or I'm trying to articulate this the right away, but you let them tell a story that that is their own,
but may not have been their own. Does that make sense? Well, I guess what I'm saying is that
it's like Inglorious Bastards in Quentin Tarantino, right? I mean, none of us expected that
moment where Hitler gets shot right and killed. So tell I'm not saying alternative history, but
you're letting these people have a second chance.
39:06
Yeah. I mean, you know, for example, in Silent Sky, the production is glorious. I really made the
intentional choice to give Henrietta, even though we have no proof that she had any flirtation,
any romance with anyone, but she's a human being. Of course she did. Of course she did, of
course she fell in love with someone, or wanted to, or thought about it. So the idea of allowing
a character that just because history doesn't say something happened doesn't mean it didn't
happen. And honestly, especially for women, those people, they aren't going to write all the
parts of our stories often. Doesn't mean they didn't happen. Doesn't mean that hearts weren't
engaged and broken and tested. And I think that's what I always try to do with the characters,
is find the expansiveness of what we might not expect. This is also true of my play Marie Curie:
The Half Life of Marie Curie, which you can listen on Audible, it's a beautiful, beautifully done
audio drama as well as a play for the stage, and a lot of what people think about Marie Curie,
they don't actually know that it was this massive sex scandal that toppled her reputation when
right before she won her second Nobel Prize. And so that play goes into her talking about stuff
that we don't have any record of her talking about. And in my play, she's talking to her best
friend and a private space. And theater does that really well, is finding the the depth of
humanity that isn't public. It's, you know, our truths are often in in the shadows or in private,
closed door spaces and and that's, that's the great purview of theater, is finding those secret
conversations that show us who we are. So I tend to do that, and that means, you know, we're
gonna allow the, you know, women, characters, or any character, to have full mind, full
passion, full heart and everything.
Ryan Paul 40:52
Because they're human beings.
Lauren Gunderson 40:53
Yeah.
Ryan Paul 40:53
Just like men and women, they share the same appetites and challenges. And just, why couldn't
it happen?
Lauren Gunderson 41:01
Yeah, exactly.
Ryan Paul 41:02
So how do you decide? So, for example, in, we reference Silent Sky, because that's what's in
my mind. But, but we talk about Annie Cannon, who was a brilliant astronomer, but, for
example, was deaf. How do you decide what aspects of of the the human you're gonna involve
you're gonna keep and what you're gonna take away?
41:22
You know, so much of what I do is about contrast and compliment. So making sure that the
characters are serving each other. Our main character, Henrietta, who are the people that help
her, who are the people that hinder, who are the people that understand her, who are the
people that don't? And sort of filling it out from the main character out and so what why needed
from the character of Annie Cannon is somebody that contrasted Henrietta and also are sort of
identical. I mean, their passion and drive for astronomy is, is pretty parallel, but the way that
they approach it, how one sort of agrees to be a rule follower and one doesn't. And the journey
of that relationship from rather prickly to something really supportive and connected is part of
the journey of the play. So figuring out, well, I know who Henrietta is, so Annie has to fill in this
part of her, and then Will needs to fill out this other part. And her sister is another, and so a lot
of it is again, in conversation with our main character and figuring out what parts will serve the
play as a whole through them.
Ryan Paul 42:29
So do you see, you know, do you see when you're when you have the ending and the beginning
and all that the structure? Do you see it as putting together a puzzle as following, or like,
following a pattern, or I'm just gonna, like a crochet where you start at this line, you just keep
going, and it fills in that way.
Lauren Gunderson 42:51
Yeah. I mean, it is. It is definitely sort of experimental. It is an out and starting in the center and
finding our way out. Sometimes it feels like a maze. Sometimes it feels like a puzzle, for sure. I
think it is in the construction of it, I always kind of want to start with not enough and figure out
where we can go and how we can expand. And that's, that's certainly the joy of it is
discovering, Oh, I get to write this whole new thing, not I have to. And the the delight in that is
certainly what, what fuels me. But somebody used a metaphor the other day of kind of a block
of marble and kind of chipping away to find the sculpture inside that which is not something
that that feels resonant to me, that feels like something trapped that I'm excavating as
opposed to building and augmenting and adding on. I sort of like the the the growth model as
opposed to the excavation.
Ryan Paul 43:54
So you, you start with dessert and then build the the meal around it.
Lauren Gunderson 43:59
Sure.
Ryan Paul 43:59
Side dishes and the,
44:00
My sister is a fantastic pastry chef. So that is an apt an apt, apt phrase, yeah.
Ryan Paul 44:06
So, so you've written for for, for musicals, you've written play, straight plays, yeah. And you've
written for television,
44:17
Not really, not a ton of television, I mean, but you a little animation
Ryan Paul 44:21
Here and there, movies, yeah. So have you had anything that you've written just like, this is
going to be an audio drama like, I'm not interested in it being on the stage. I want it to be
brought to life just solely with the voice. You ever done that? To be seen, right to be seen. So I
want to talk about in our last few minutes here about your definition of creativity. Like, what?
What do you? How would you define creativity? You're obviously a very creative person.
44:36
Not really, no. I always want to play on a stage. So pretty much everything should, should be,
become a player musical at some point.
Lauren Gunderson 44:59
Yeah, yeah.
Ryan Paul 45:00
Right? So how would you define?
Lauren Gunderson 45:02
It feels? I'm gonna use a lot of fiery references, but it feels catalytic and combustive, and there
is, sort of in terms of the Big Bang of it, the something out of nothing. I mean, what I do is take,
no one is asking me to write, or when my first plays, no one asked me to do that. Nobody said,
"no, here's the start of something, and you finish it." It is out of completely, to quote
Shakespeare, "thin air" that these ideas, these whole stories come come from. And I mean,
anyone who is creative in any form has a version of that where a piece of music did not exist
until you composed it and or played it, or. So the idea that so much is as possible only because
I get to my office and say, "all right, act one, scene one, let's start this thing," and then a year
or two or three later, we have beautiful productions, like the ones you see at Utah Shakes, you
know, incredible costumes, brilliant design, actors aplenty saying great speeches, and
hundreds of people coming to see it every night. And so the idea that, to me, is the core of it, is
the something out of nothing, and there's incredible courage and bravery that for anyone
attempting to do that, it is in some ways easy to easier, to follow a pattern, pattern, to follow
instruction, to do the thing you're told to do. But every real artist is not doing something that
anyone told them to do. That's why they're an artist. And so you have to have gumption, and
you have to have a bit of a brazen sense of defiance to say, "no, I'm going to do what I want to
do. I'm going to make this thing." And I always say when I when I teach, and when I talk about
writing, it all comes back to something that you want or need, that does not yet exist in the
world. And it sounds like a selfish prerogative to to exist with that model. But what it actually
shows and is, is if it matters to you, it's going to matter to somebody else. If you want it to
exist, somebody else wants it to exist. So you are doing actually a great favor to people who
perhaps don't have your capacity to create, to create something that they're going to find and
say, "thank God that somebody made this. That's me. That's what I wanted. That's what I
needed. Oh God, I see myself in that, or I need that, or I was in a moment of my life when
nothing made sense except for that."
Ryan Paul 45:43
Even if they're not born yet.
Lauren Gunderson 47:29
Exactly, especially Shakespeare's talking to me from 400 years ago. So that's that is. That's
part of our lineage of creativity, too.
Ryan Paul 47:37
So I never thought about this until you mentioned this, about this idea of vulnerability, right?
You think about, you know, I've been around enough actors that they there's a certain
vulnerability that they go out and present these emotions that we, we process. But I would
imagine there's a certain vulnerability on that beginning when you have these words that you
give to these people, that they are, they are, you are being vulnerable to them by giving them
part of you.
48:05
Oh, yeah, that's a nice way to say it. Yes, it's there's a bit of a panic every day, every time
there's a first reading of something, because it has lived with me and makes sense in my mind.
But there is a translational moment where it goes from my mind to theirs. And there is, I think
in large, the spaces that I often find myself in are very safe and knowing the process ahead of
us. So the first thing you get on day one is not going to be the thing that you do on opening
night and trusting that we are all trying to make the best work together. And if you do that,
then, yeah, we can all be vulnerable to each other.
Ryan Paul 48:41
So how do you, it's look. I describe myself as the phone that's only get to 80% no matter how
long you plug it in, they're always at 80% that's how I feel. I mean, how do you fill your tank?
Remember, creativity is not we have said it is work, it is enjoyable sometimes, but it's work, but
it is draining. How do you fill your tank?
49:04
Um, I don't have a problem with filling it at the moment. You know, try to take care of yourself
and sleep and and surround yourself with good people who believe in you. I mean, so much
energy comes from friends who say I'm so excited to hear about what you're working on, or I
just read that draft and oh gosh, I want to talk about it with you. Or I saw this book and it made
me think about you. Or let's go to see a play together, those people who want to be in your
space and want to know your mind and and I want to know theirs. I mean, so much of the idea
and the the catalytic moments for a lot of these plays came about because I was in the
company of somebody awesome, who I said, "tell me more. Tell me everything that you love
and know." And I think passionate people find passionate people. It doesn't actually matter
what you're passionate about. I just want passion. I want to know you care about cars. Tell me
why they are amazing. I don't give a crap. Sure tell me why I should give a crap. I'll talk about
Shakespeare and you talk about golf or whatever. I don't know something. Let's talk about it
together. So I find that vivaciousness in people keeps me energetic and keeps me going back
to the to the page. You know, part of why I love what I do is I get to completely sink into a
subject and become a sort of rabid fan of, Birding is a new play I'm writing. And I'm like, All
right, let's go down the birding rabbit hole, or Much Ado. I was just saying I'm writing a play
that's a modern play that's sort of in conversation with Much Ado. So like, let's go down that as
much Much Ado as I can get. And, you know, every, some science subjects, history, and it's
such a pleasure, but I can only do that if I really care. Perhaps too much about it. So I like to
find other people who care too much.
Ryan Paul 50:53
So you said something I didn't really understand. Sleep? Can you spell that?
Lauren Gunderson 50:57
Lauren Gunderson 50:57
Two e's. I know it's weird. I know.
Ryan Paul 51:00
All right, let's take our final break. This song we're gonna play is called Sweetest Devotion by
Adele. Can you tell us about this?
Lauren Gunderson 51:07
You know this, I have two kids, and when this, she released this album. This is a song about her
son, and, oh man, I love it. So it makes me feel a certain motherly rock star affection for for a
mother to kid.
Ryan Paul 51:21
All right. Sweetest Devotion by Adele.
Adele 51:51
With your loving, there ain't nothing It's the sweetest Devotion That I can't adore The way I'm
running, with you, honey Means we can break every law I find it funny that you're the only One
I never looked for There is something in your loving That tears down my walls I wasn't ready
then, I'm ready now I'm heading straight for you You will only be eternally The one that I belong
to The sweetest devotion Hitting me like an explosion All of my life, I've been frozen The
sweetest devotion I've known I'll forever be whatever you want me to be I'll go under and all
over for your clarity When you wonder if I'm gonna lose my way home Just remember, that
come whatever, I'll be yours all alone I wasn't ready then, I'm ready now I'm heading straight
for you You will only be eternally The one that I belong to The sweetest devotion Hitting me like
an explosion All of my life, I've been frozen The sweetest devotion I've known I've been looking
for you, baby In every face that I've ever known And there is something 'bout the way you love
me That finally feels like home You're my light, you're my darkness You're the right kind of
madness And you're my hope, you're my despair You're my scope, everything, everywhere The
sweetest devotion Hitting me like an explosion All of my life, I've been frozen The sweetest
devotion I've known Sweetest It's the sweetest Sweetest It's the sweetest Sweetest It's the
sweetest Sweetest
Kasen Graff 55:32
All right, that was Sweetest Devotion by Adele. You're on listening to the APEX Radio Hour here
on KSUU, Thunder 91.1 I'll turn it back to you, Ryan.
Ryan Paul 55:42
Thank you, Kasen, so we are at our last segment, one that we do every time with all of our
Thank you, Kasen, so we are at our last segment, one that we do every time with all of our
guests and all of our friends here in the studio. So first of all, Lauren, thank you for being here.
We appreciate your time and your conversation. So here's the question. Lauren Gunderson,
what are you currently watching, reading, listening to or playing that is bringing you joy?
56:05
Mmm. What popped into my mind is a book I read recently that I can, I can't stop thinking
about. It's called The Invisible Life of Addie LaRue by V E Schwab is a fantastic fantasy love
story, but surprising and just absolutely kind of unforgettable writing, both on a macro plot
level and sentences that I keep thinking about. Phrases that she that she delivered with such a
such heart and and and and soul.
Ryan Paul 56:35
Cool. Cate Shaerer, what are you currently watching, reading, listening to or playing that is
bringing you joy?
Cate Schaerer 56:42
I've been really into AC/DC in the last week. I don't know what it is. It just, I start my day with
shoot to thrill, and it gets me ready, just feeling hyped, ready to go at the world. It, I don't know
what it's been. I just have an AC/DC bug.
Ryan Paul 56:58
Yeah. That makes Yeah, the, of course, we can't play the most favorite song. Cormac Bone.
What are you currently watching, reading, listening to or playing that is bringing you joy?
Cormac Bone 57:08
Yeah, good question. First of all, shoot to thrill is Iron Man's intro songs. So that's probably why.
To be to be quite frank, Silent Sky was one of the things. And I know, like she's in the room.
That's so cliche. But two years ago, three years ago, when I first came to SUU, SUU students
put it on I and I was taking astronomy at the time, and my astronomy professor was like, go see
this show. And I was like, okay, cool. Yeah. Had really no clue about it. And then was just really
pretty blown away by it. And I was like, Oh my gosh. I really loved it. Last summer, I worked
house management for the Shakespeare Festival, and they announced that they were doing it.
I'm like, Ooh, I would really love to see that show on the Shakespeare budget. And and then I
took script analysis this semester, and my professor's like, hey, the playwright's gonna be here.
And I was like, that's fantastic news. And so honestly, like this week, I've been looking forward
to all the events that you guys have been doing with Lauren and just seeing the show for free,
for class. Big, well, I mean, for my tuition, for class, and so yeah, that this week especially
brought me a lot of joy.
Lauren Gunderson 58:09
Was your professor Dr Cameron Pace?
Cormac Bone 58:11
No, no. Wendy.
Ryan Paul 58:12
Oh, oh. For astronomy.
Cormac Bone 58:13
Yeah. Dr space, yep. We call him Dr space, love the guy.
Ryan Paul 58:17
Cool. Well, I should also mention that we do have another one of our student producer, student
workers, who was in class during the Radio Hour, and so we've decided to get hers. So Lauren
bird, she's in class, at least, I'm assuming she's in class, but her thing was bringing her joy was
Jet Lag, the Game from YouTube where, apparently YouTubers travel the world playing tag. So,
yeah, so Casen Graff, what are you currently watching, reading, listening to or playing that is
bringing you joy?
Kasen Graff 58:25
So it's going to be similar to the answer I give every week. But I've, I'm a fan of Brandon
Sanderson, and I finally talked one of my best friends, actually, Athens. You know, Athens
Ryan Paul 59:01
I do
Kasen Graff 59:02
Into reading Brandon Sanderson. Means we're going to his convention in December together,
and Athens is in. Just watching them reading these books and watching their reactions as they
read these things the first time that I've been trying to get them to read for years has been so
much fun.
Ryan Paul 59:22
Sitting in the presence of one of America's great writers. I will say this that you being a fan is
what they call an understatement.
Kasen Graff 59:33
All right, Ryan, what do you wat-? Currently watching, reading, listening to or playing that is
bringing you joy.
Ryan Paul 59:40
I am reading A Tree Grows in Brooklyn by Betty Smith. I have, I have, I've heard about the man.
The book is obviously older, but written in the 40s, but I have loved every word. It's like taking
a verbal bath of thinking of this world. What an amazing writer. She is, so A Tree Grows in
Brooklyn, the great classic by Betty Smith. With that we are going to end, but we're going to go
out on a song that you have given us by Beyonce, American Requiem. Can you tell us why you
chose this?
1:00:16
I think her whole album is extraordinary, the recent one, and I respect her artistry. Just think
she's a national treasure, and this song just made me sort of weep with the kind of pain of the
nation, but also a lot of hope. So hopefully we'll take that into this the rest of this year.
Ryan Paul 1:00:35
Okay, you've been listening to the APEX Radio Hour with playwright Lauren Gunderson. We
appreciate you being here. Thanks for our listeners, and we'll go out with American Requiem by
Beyonce.
Beyonce 1:00:47
Nothin' really is For things to stay the same, they have to change again Hello, my old friend You
change your name but not the ways you play pretend American Requiem Them big ideas
(yeah) are buried here (yeah) Amen It's a lot of talkin' goin' on While I sing my song Can you
hear me? I said, "Do you hear me?" Looka there, looka there, now Looka there, looka there
Looka-looka, looka there, looka there Looka-looka, looka there, looka there Looka-looka, looka
there, looka there (oh, yeah) Looka-looka, looka there, looka there It's a lot of chatter in here
But let me make myself clear (oh) Can you hear me? (Huh) Or, do you fear me? (Ah) Can we
stand for something? Now is the time to face the wind (ow) Covered in peace and love, y'all Oh,
a lot of takin' up space Salty tears beyond my gaze Can you stand me? (Can you stand me?
Can you stand me? Can you stand me?) Ooh-ah Can we stand? (Can you stand me? Can you
stand me? Can you stand me?) Can you stand with me? (Can you stand me? Can you stand by
me?) Can we stand for something? Now is the time to face the wind Now ain't the time to
pretend Now is the time to let love in Thinking to myself (to myself) Oh, it's a lot of talkin' goin'
on, uh While I sing my song, yeah Do you hear me when I say? Do you hear me when I say?
Looka there, looka there Looka, look Looka-looka-looka-looka-looka-looka Looka there, looka
there L-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-l-looka there Oh, looka there, looka there Looka there, looka there (Can
you stand me? Can you stand me?) La-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la-la (Can you stand me? Can
you stand me? Can you stand by me?) Can we stand for something? (Yeah) Now is the time to
face the wind (Now is the time to face the wind) Now ain't the time to pretend Now is the time
to let love in (to let love in) Together, can we stand? Looka there, liquor in my hand The
grandbaby of a moonshine man Gadsden, Alabama Got folk down Gavelston, rooted in
Louisiana They used to say I spoke too country Then the rejection came, said I wasn't country
'nough Said I wouldn't saddle up, but If that ain't country, tell me, what is? Plant my bare feet
on solid ground for years They don't, don't know how hard I had to fight for this When I sing my
song Goodbye to what has been Pretty house that we never settled in A funeral for fair-weather
friends I am the one to cleanse me of my father's sins American Requiem Them big ideas
(yeah) are buried here (yeah) Amen