Uncover the invisible storytelling woven into every stitch of the Utah Shakespeare Festival on this special edition of the APEX Radio Hour with host Ryan Paul. Senior costume designer Bill Black details his remarkable 35-season journey shaping iconic theatrical productions, including this year's distinct configurations of Hamlet and Twelfth Night. From interpreting a director’s early vision to navigating full-scale pattern drafting, explore how an adaptive and industrious design process grounds characters in psychological truth before they ever step into the spotlight.
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[Reese Whitaker]
You are listening to the Apex Hour hosted by Ryan Paul on KSUU Thunder 91.1. This show allows more personal time with our guests, allowing them to give us their stories and opinions. We will also give you new music to listen to, hoping you enjoy some new sounds and genres. Welcome to this episode of the Apex Hour.
[Lauren Bird]
Welcome to the Apex Radio Hour, Utah Shakespeare Festival Edition. I'm producer Lauren Bird and I'm here today with Director of Apex and Professor of History, Ryan Paul and our special guest, Bill Black. I'll turn it over to you, Ryan.
[Ryan Paul]
Thank you, Lauren. We are so excited to have Bill Black here. He's a person that I've wanted to talk to for a long time as I've studied and wrote about the history of the festival.
Bill Black is a longtime costume designer for the Utah Shakespeare Festival and I'm excited to talk about a part of the festival that I don't experience all that often, but it's just fascinating to me. I mean, when it works, it works and when it doesn't, it works. That's how, isn't that the motto?
[Bill Black]
That is the motto.
[Ryan Paul]
So I always like to start with kind of a how we get to now question. So if you could just tell me a little bit about where you're from, what you, you know, how you got into do what you do.
[Bill Black]
Okay, well, there's a couple of interesting stories. Right now, I am from Farmington, Missouri, which is near where I was born and raised. For most of the time I worked at the festival, I lived in Knoxville, Tennessee, where I taught at the University of Tennessee.
I became a costume designer because, or because is maybe too strong a word, but I became a costume designer after having been a child actor and realizing at a point in my life that I couldn't play a juvenile for the rest of my life and that was my particular gift. I was a sewer because my grandmother taught me to sew at a very young age. And my sort of career path was to be a high school art teacher.
So if you put art and sewing and actor in a blender, what you come out with is costume designer because I always like to tell actors, at least for the part where I'm imagining and drawing the costumes, I'm playing every character in the play. And it's a low-risk opportunity to play all those characters and not have to put myself out on the stage. How I got to the festival is a different kind of interesting story.
Christine Fresa, who was the composer at the festival for a long time, was also the composer at a Shakespeare festival in Pittsburgh, the Three Rivers Shakespeare Festival. And I was working there by accident because a faculty colleague was directing there, needed a costume designer, and brought me along. So she said to me one day, have you ever thought of working at the Utah Shakespeare Festival?
And I said, there's a Shakespeare Festival in Utah? And at that point in my life, I'd really never been west of Kansas City. A couple of years, so I sent a resume and stuff to Doug Cook and thought I would never hear anything back.
A couple of years later, I was at the IRDA Conference in New York City, and my friend Peter Harrigan, who I had worked with at Pittsburgh, and I were riding on the bus from New York back to Newark to get the flight home. And sitting behind us was Peter's friend, Rick Van Noy, who at the time was the company manager here, and his friend, Jeff Leder. And so Jeff Leder and I met on a bus going to the Newark airport, and then he related the conversation we'd had to Doug Cook, and shortly after that, I got an offer to work here.
[Ryan Paul]
What year would that have been?
[Bill Black]
Well, there's another weird story. My first contract here was 1991, but some things happened and that didn't work out. So the first year I actually worked here was 1992.
[Ryan Paul]
And you've been here pretty much every year since?
[Bill Black]
Every season since then, including the COVID season where while we didn't produce the plays, I designed five productions.
[Ryan Paul]
So the, well, let's go back to the child actor. Okay. So was that like TV?
[Bill Black]
Was that theater? We lived across the street from the local, what they called in those days junior college. And my older brother, who was much older than I, was very active in the music program there.
And there was a woman who put on these sort of tableau vivant events where the choir would sing and the curtain would open and there would be a living picture.
[Ryan Paul]
Like in The Music Man?
[Bill Black]
Yes.
[Ryan Paul]
Glucretian urn.
[Bill Black]
Exactly. And I was a tiny little child with giant brown eyes and a big mop of curly hair, and she became enamored with me. And so I was in a lot of the things.
And then just from that, it sort of became a thing. You were the kid. I was a kid.
And though I am, people who I work with don't know this about me, but I am almost depilitatingly shy. That taught me to play a character. And so when I'm feeling frightened or shy, I just play a character that isn't.
So what did your parents do for a living? My mother was a second-grade school teacher. My father was a utilities company executive.
And I lived in a very, very, very small town, like 5,000 people.
[Ryan Paul]
So what's the first thing that you remember wanting to be as a kid?
[Bill Black]
Art teacher.
[Ryan Paul]
From the very beginning.
[Bill Black]
And I think it's because my favorite teacher was the art teacher. And all through school and through most of college, until I did student teaching, I thought being a high school art teacher is what I wanted to do.
[Ryan Paul]
Was there a medium that you excelled at or that you really enjoyed?
[Bill Black]
I was mostly a painter, and oddly, now in retirement, that's what I'm pursuing is painting. But I liked crafting. I liked anything where you were making something.
[Ryan Paul]
Which is interesting because I've seen your design. I mean, it is art, right? Your paintings of those kinds of things of the costume.
[Bill Black]
Well, thank you for that.
[Ryan Paul]
I mean, no.
[Bill Black]
I think of those sketches as tools. I mean, of course you want to make them as attractive as possible, but I think of them as tools because what they're really used for is for the people who are making the clothes to know what they're supposed to look like when they're finished.
[Ryan Paul]
So we talked about your grandmother taught you how to sew. Did she live nearby?
[Bill Black]
She did.
[Ryan Paul]
Was there a relationship?
[Bill Black]
She did. And my earliest memory of sewing is I had my tonsils out when I was four, and I had to be in the hospital for quite a while. Now, you know, they just take them out and send you home.
But I had to be in the hospital for quite a while, and I was brought sewing cards, which are cardboard things with holes in them and a big plastic needle and yarn, and it's sort of like connect the dots. And that's when I sort of got hooked on the idea of sewing.
[Ryan Paul]
Does every – I mean, as a costume designer, and we'll talk a little bit more about that here in a little bit about what that actually entails, but do you have to know how to sew?
[Bill Black]
I think it's useful. Not all costume designers have to know how to sew, and really, I mean, officially the job of being a costume designer is choosing things. It's not making them.
It's not sewing them. My personal sort of mantra is that I can't be clear with someone about what I want if I don't know how to – I can't tell you how I want something done if I don't know how to do it. And I taught costume design and technology for a long time, and it always startled me, flummoxed me a little when students arrived and wanted to be costume designers, but they did not know anything about clothes or how clothes are put together or – and really, that's the whole thing.
[Ryan Paul]
So is that why you – whenever we see each other, you just shake your head and say, oh, man, you'll never be a costume designer.
[Bill Black]
I don't believe that's ever happened.
[Ryan Paul]
So when you teach costume design, I mean, what are the top five skills that a costume designer needs to have?
[Bill Black]
Knowing how to read a play and understand what's in it. I think understanding a little bit at least about the psychology of human beings because what you're trying to express with the clothes is somebody's state of mind or along with whatever activity they're doing, also how they relate to other people in the story. I think you have to be a person who is a storyteller, who understands storytelling because, I mean, everything we do in the theater is storytelling, but a costume designer's job is to assist in the telling of the story.
I think you need to understand basic design fundamentals like color and line and balance and the organization of visual elements. Was that five yet?
[Ryan Paul]
I guess it was four.
[Bill Black]
And I think you have to be an adaptable personality. Theater is about collaboration, but at the same time, there's a leader in the collaboration and you have to be able to take what the leader says they want, find a way to invest in it and produce that. And at the end of the day, you may have to say, I don't agree with that or that's not what I want to do, but here is the best way I can fulfill the goal that you have set forth for me.
[Ryan Paul]
While still sticking to my aesthetics or principles.
[Bill Black]
To the extent that that's possible, yeah.
[Ryan Paul]
So talk me through the hiring process. I realize it was a little different back in the 90s. Now that, I mean, when they say to you, okay, we want to hire you as a designer, are you being asked by the artistic director or you?
[Bill Black]
It depends on the venue. For a lot of my, I mean, I was a university professor. So some of my work was part of that job.
And the university where I taught, the University of Tennessee, had a resident Lort Theater on campus. And so I worked for the Lort Theater as part of my job there. A lot of the rest of my freelance work, honestly, came from connections I made with people here.
And in some cases, a production manager will say, you know, they'll be deciding on who's designing shows in the season and a production manager will say, this person is easy to work with and never breaks the budget and, you know, whatever. I mean, I think some of the work I got that way. I know, you know, some theaters, Denver Center, for example, I had a connection with the production manager and I got a lot of the work there that way.
The same thing at Alabama Shakespeare. And those were people that I made connections with here first. Sometimes you get the work because a director that you've worked with who likes your work and likes working with you recommends you to them.
And at some theaters, they do prefer to hire the designers that the director prefers. And you can see why because, you know, obviously if the director is preferring someone, they work well with them. And sometimes it happens because you have done a play at that theater for one of those reasons and they disliked you or they liked the work that you did.
I mean, I think at the festival in Pittsburgh, I was brought there that summer by my faculty colleague who was directing there and they said to her, we need a costume designer and she brought me along. And then I worked there for six more seasons without her because they liked the work I did. I didn't break the budget and we got the shows done.
And, you know, surprisingly, budget's a lot of it. But, I mean, I think they, you know, they enjoyed working with me and thought highly of the work I had done, I guess. And so I got return engagements that way.
So there's all kinds of ways that it happens.
[Ryan Paul]
So I know in the past, well, I know the way it goes now is generally, for example, the scenic designer designs for the theater, so the three plays and the theater. Is that how it works for you as well? What shows are you designing for?
[Bill Black]
This season I'm designing Hamlet and Twelfth Night. Interestingly, I did Hamlet and Twelfth Night the last time we did those two plays in the same season.
[Ryan Paul]
With much different color palettes between those two shows.
[Bill Black]
Yeah. When I first started working here, most costume designers just did one play. And the Randall Theater designer did all the plays in the Randall because they were ostensibly smaller projects.
That's not true anymore. I mean, the biggest show we're doing this season is in the Randall. After about three seasons here, that designer couldn't come.
And so I promoted myself as somebody who could maybe do two plays in the Randall. And so I did the musical, which was the first musical we did. Funny thing happened on the way to the forum.
And I think You Can't Take It With You was the other play. And from then for about ten or so years, I did two shows in the Randall every summer. I generally did the musical and whatever the sort of mid-century comedy was.
Because we had more of a regular formula then, I think, for how the season played. After a while, I decided that it was kind of boring that I didn't ever get to do a Shakespeare play. And so I said, you know, I'd really like to do a Shakespeare play.
So that summer I did Othello in the Adams Theater. And I can't remember what the play was in the Randall, but something in the Randall. And then for a while, I did that every season.
One in the Randall, one in the Adams. And then one summer, we were doing Hamlet. And the other show I was doing was HMS Pinafore, I think.
And they happened to be shows that were opposite each other. And that didn't present a problem seemingly because we would dress-rehearse the Randall shows in the afternoon and we would dress-rehearse the Adams shows at night. And so I could be both places.
But because of sound and musical issues or something, they moved the Pinafore dress rehearsal to the evening. So the second dress of Hamlet, I had to be at the first dress of HMS Pinafore. And that then set a sort of guideline that you couldn't be assigned two shows that had the potential to be back-to-back.
There was at least one season when I did two shows in the Adams which somebody said that wouldn't be a good thing to do because those shows are too big. And then for a while, I did two shows in the Adams. And then they decided that it would be difficult to do one in the Adams and one in the Randall because they're two different spaces.
And at the time, the costume shops were two different places. It seems like every time we made a rule, then I was the person who then broke the rule the next time. So I've done every kind of combination of thing you could do here, I think.
[Ryan Paul]
And so when – well, let's do this. Let's take our first break and then I want to have a conversation about the process. Okay.
So those of you who have listened to our show or podcast before know that instead of doing commercials, we ask our guests to give us a list of five songs of which we choose four, Lauren and I, to play something that means something to them. So you gave us a great eclectic list that I think – I mean songs that I – some that I've really enjoyed. But I want to choose – the first one I want to play is a song from Sweeney Todd called A Little Priest.
Can you tell us why you chose this song?
[Bill Black]
I think it is the most hilarious song ever written. I think that – I mean I'm a huge Sondheim fan. As a singer, I always loved singing Sondheim, though they are very difficult.
What I love about this song is how clever each change that she makes in the – you know, what kind of person is going to be cooked in the pie thing. And I can remember the first time I did Sweeney Todd, I had to go to the theater every night to collect the laundry because we were performing off-site. And the laundry had to come back to our home theater to be done every day.
And so every night I would go to the theater before the end of the show so that I could be there to pick up the laundry. And I would try to make it into – that's the end of the first act of Sweeney Todd. And I would try to make it in time to hear that song every night because I think it's so funny.
And people who know me will tell you that pie is my favorite food.
[Ryan Paul]
Okay, thank you. This is A Little Priest from Sweeney Todd. That's all very well, but what are we going to do about the Italian?
[Reese Whitaker]
Later on, when it's dark, we'll take him out of the trunk and bury him.
[Ryan Paul]
Well, yes, of course we could do that. I don't suppose he's got any relatives going to come poking around looking for him. Well, you know me.
Bright ideas just pop into my head and I keep thinking. Seems a downright shame.
[Lauren Bird]
Shame?
[Ryan Paul]
Seems an awful waste. Such a nice, plump frame. What's his name as?
Ed? Has? Nor he can't be traced.
Business needs are limped. Debts to be erased. Think of it as drift.
As a gift. If you get my drift. No?
Seems an awful waste. I mean, with the price of meat. What it is, when you get it, if you get it.
How? Good you got it. Take, for instance, Mrs. Mooney at a pie shop. Business never better using ugly pussycats and toast. And a pussy's good for maybe six or seven at the most. And I'm sure they can't compare as far as taste.
Mrs. Lovett, what a charming notion. Well, it does seem a waste.
[Lauren Bird]
Mrs. Lovett, how I'd live without you all these years, I'll never know. Think about it.
[Ryan Paul]
You lot of other gentlemen will soon be covered for a shame. Won't they? Think how?
A waste. What's the sound of the world out there? What, Mr. Todd, what, Mr. Todd, what is that sound? Those crunching noises pervading the air. Yes, Mr. Todd, yes, Mr. Todd, yes, all around. It's man devouring man, my dear.
[Lauren Bird]
And who... Ah, these are desperate times, Mrs. Lovett. And desperate measures must be taken.
[Ryan Paul]
Here we are now, hot out of the oven. What is that? It's priest.
Have a little priest.
[Lauren Bird]
Is it really good?
[Ryan Paul]
Sir, it's too good, at least. Then again, they don't commit sins of the flesh. So it's pretty fresh.
[Lauren Bird]
Awful lot of fat.
[Ryan Paul]
Only where it's at.
[Lauren Bird]
Haven't you got poet or something like that?
[Ryan Paul]
No, you see, the trouble with poet is how do you know it's deceased? Try the priest.
[Lauren Bird]
Mm, heavenly. Not as hearty as bishop, perhaps, but then not as bland as curate, either.
[Ryan Paul]
Good for business, too. Always leaves you wanting more. Trouble is, we only get it on Sundays.
Lawyer's rather nice.
[Reese Whitaker]
If it's for a price.
[Ryan Paul]
Order something else, though, to follow, since no one should swallow it twice.
[Lauren Bird]
Have you any deal?
[Ryan Paul]
Know that if you're British and loyal, you might enjoy Royal Marine. Anyway, it's clean. Though, of course, it tastes of whatever it's been.
Is that squire on fire? Mercy, no, sir. Look close up.
You'll notice it's grosser.
[Reese Whitaker]
Looks thicker. Black thicker.
[Ryan Paul]
No, it has to be grosser. It's green. Ah, ha ha ha, ha ha ha!
[Reese Whitaker]
The history of the world, my love.
[Ryan Paul]
Save a lot of graves do a lot of relatives favour.
[Lauren Bird]
Is those below serving those up above?
[Ryan Paul]
Everybody shaves, so there should be plenty of flavour. How gratifying for ones to know That those above will serve those down below. Let me see.
We've got Tinker.
[Reese Whitaker]
No, no. Something pinker.
[Ryan Paul]
Taylor.
[Reese Whitaker]
Paler.
[Ryan Paul]
Butler. Subtler. Potter.
Hotter. Locksmith. Lovely bit of clock.
[Lauren Bird]
Maybe for a lock.
[Ryan Paul]
Then again the sweep if you want it cheap and you like it dark. Try the financier. Think of his career.
[Bill Black]
That looks pretty rank.
[Ryan Paul]
Well he drank, it's a bank cashier. Last one really sold. Wasn't quite so old.
[Lauren Bird]
Have you any beetle?
[Ryan Paul]
Next week so I'm told. Beetle isn't bad till you smell it and notice how well it's been greased. Expect a priest.
Now this might be a bit stringy. But then of course it's a fiddle player.
[Lauren Bird]
No, no. This isn't fiddle player. It's piccolo player.
[Ryan Paul]
How can you tell?
[Reese Whitaker]
It's piping hot.
[Ryan Paul]
Then blow on it first. The history of the world, my sweets. Oh, Mr. Todd, ooh, Mr. Todd, what does it tell?
[Lauren Bird]
Is who gets eaten and who gets to eat.
[Ryan Paul]
And, Mr. Todd, too, Mr. Todd, who gets to sell. But fortunately it's all so clear. Everybody.
Since marine doesn't appeal to you, how about rear admiral?
[Lauren Bird]
Too salty. I prefer general.
[Ryan Paul]
With or without his province? What is that? It's fop.
Furnished in the shop. And we have some shepherds fire-peppered with actual shepherd on top. And I've just begun.
Is a politician so oily? He'll serve with a doily F1.
[Lauren Bird]
Put it if it's going to rock. Try the fryer. Fry the dryer.
Oh, the clergy is really too coarse and too oily.
[Ryan Paul]
The laughter, that's compactor. Yes, and always arrives overdone. I'll come again when you have judge on the menu.
Have charity towards the world, my pet. Yes, yes, I know, my love.
[Reese Whitaker]
We'll take the customers that we can get. I owe that love, my love. We'll not discriminate great from small.
No, we'll serve everyone. We need everyone. Get to everyone.
At all.
[Lauren Bird]
That was a little priest from Sweeney Todd. You're listening to the Apex Radio Hour Utah Shakespeare Festival Edition. I'll turn it back to you, Ryan.
[Ryan Paul]
Thank you, Lauren. We are here in the studio with Bill Black. He is a longtime costume designer for the Utah Shakespeare Festival.
Been talking about his life and his process. This season here in 2026, he designed the costumes for Twelfth Night and for Hamlet. So let's talk a little bit about the process.
We talked a little bit earlier about the things that a costume designer needs to have. So you can choose which show, but let's say, okay, Bill, we're going to hire you to do Hamlet or Twelfth Night. You can choose.
Where does it start?
[Bill Black]
Well, I mean, for these productions, I've done both of these plays five times before, both of them. But how my process usually starts is the first thing I do, the first four things I do is read the play. Again.
And read the play and read the play and read the play. And the first time I read the play, I try to read it in one sitting to experience the text as an audience experiences it and feel the arc of the play. The second time I read it, I start reading it for details.
And I usually keep a pad next to me and I write things down like, like. Blood, you know, or pocket or things that are. And then the third time I read it, I start.
Charting it out. I make a grid with all the scenes and I start charting it out to see who's on stage together. How much time there is between things on that chart.
I also indicate blood and, you know, costume changes. If I know at that point, I'll put so that I can see how much time there is to change and what kinds of, you know, all of the kind of technical stuff. Then I make a list of characters.
And if I know at that point, and it's really helpful to know at that point how they're going to double, because in Shakespeare plays, usually there's way more characters than you have actors. And so people double. If I know how they're going to double, that sometimes helps me in the design, because there might be parts of their clothes that can carry from, like they, their boots might be able to be both characters or whatever.
Then I, well, and somewhere in that process, I have read, you know, some kind of concept statement or notes from the director that says, here is what I want to do with the production, because especially with plays like Shakespeare plays, you know, people implant ideas and frameworks on them sometimes that change how you think about them. Then I will, if we've said we're going to do Twelfth Night, for example, and we're going to set it at the carnival in Venice in the 18th century. And there have been phrases like, you know that scene in the movie Amadeus where there's this thing happening.
So then I start to research stuff like that. I mean, not the movie Amadeus in particular, but stuff like that. And I look at lots and lots of pictures and I collect lots of images.
And I may share those images with the director. I may share those images with the other, the scene designer and, you know, other people working on the production. And I look at that and I try to absorb it.
And if it's a Shakespeare play, generally, I am also listening to an audio recording of the play in my car every day when I drive to school or wherever I'm going, so that eventually the play is in my head. And it will be hard for you to surprise me about something that's going to happen in the play because I really have the play in my head. I couldn't necessarily play one of the characters at that point, but I recognize everything they say because I've heard it so many times.
And then I set all that research aside and I just start imagining the characters and I start drawing. And I have said this to every company here for a long time. When I show the sketches, I say, if this sketch does not look like you, you don't think it looks like you.
It's because, first of all, I probably drew it four or five months before you were cast. But also because when I was drawing these sketches, I was playing every character in the play. And so there's some of me in there.
And we will, as we make the costume for you, we will infuse you in there at that point. But why it looks like it does is because either there's some of me in there or they have an accessory or something about the clothes that I think I would like if I were going to play the character. It would be useful for me in this character to have a key on a chain around my neck.
And so there's a key on the chain around. And I have had actors say to me in a fitting, you know, here's the rosary that I have you holding in the sketch. And I have had them say, why would I need that?
And at that point, I say, well, when I was imagining myself playing the character, that seemed like a useful thing to me. But if it's not useful to you, we don't have to have it. But it's there because as I imagined the scene, I imagined, you know, fiddling with this rosary or whatever.
And so that's why it's there. And then.
[Ryan Paul]
Can I ask you a question? Yes. So the script that you're reading, I know that at the festival they cut the scripts for a variety of reasons.
Are you reading that script or are you just reading.
[Bill Black]
Well, ideally, yes. But that's not usually the case because the way the process goes, some of that is happening simultaneously. You know, and initial designs might be due before we have a completely finished cutting of the script.
And then, you know, and then and nothing is nothing is cemented in concrete until you. Open the play. So, you know, we might get on stage in the first dress rehearsal and something we've imagined and talked about since September.
Isn't working or something might happen along the way in rehearsal where a new idea develops or an idea we thought we had isn't working. And then we have to be adaptable to that. So nothing is I mean, the play's not done.
The art's not complete until the play is open.
[Ryan Paul]
And you have. So the the the design meetings occur December ish November ish.
[Bill Black]
The first meetings for this season we had in September. There may have been some informal talks in August, but I think the first real meeting we have was in September. And the sort of first preliminary deadline was near the end of October.
[Ryan Paul]
So are you in that meeting in September? Are you showing sketches?
[Bill Black]
No, just talking about where we might be showing research images that we've already shared with each other. But no, not drawings yet.
[Ryan Paul]
So you've read the play. You've done that. You start you sketch out the clothes for every character.
[Bill Black]
Yes.
[Ryan Paul]
And every costume.
[Bill Black]
So if if most mostly I will say, for example, in Twelfth Night, there's a bunch of sailors at the beginning. And what what I wrote, I drew Viola's captain. And then I said he's just called a captain in the script.
I drew him and then I said sailors will be similar.
[Ryan Paul]
Yeah.
[Bill Black]
And in fact, they are exactly like him.
[Ryan Paul]
But but if so, for example, in in Twelfth Night, where you have a character like, you know, Luke Sidney Johnson, who plays four or five different characters you have designed, you've sketched out.
[Bill Black]
There is a sketch. Yes, there is a sketch for Curio. There is a sketch for the reveler, which is Curio in a party costume.
And there is a sketch for the officer. Yes. So.
In in. OK, so you've got that, you know, part of that is me figuring out what it's going to be. It's part part of it is saying to John, this is what I think it should look like.
Part of it is me figuring out what it's going to be so I can figure out how we're going to where we're going to get it or how we're going to do it.
[Ryan Paul]
So so, for example, when you design, when you say, OK, I'm going to do Hamlet, the first note you write is we need lots of black.
[Bill Black]
Well, we don't need lots of black, but we need Hamlet in black because he says, tis not alone my inky cloak nor customary suits of black. So he's clearly wearing black.
[Ryan Paul]
So so we're in that process now. And you have sketches of designs that you have created for these people and then you submit those. So the director has the final yay or nay on the design.
[Bill Black]
Well, yes. I mean, it's not. Yes.
It's always a conversation and other and the designer of the scenery and the lighting and everybody also have opinions, whether or not everybody's opinion about everybody's work gets acted on or not. But ultimately, it's the director's vision that we are trying to produce. And so so, yes, ultimately, the director says, I love that.
That works fine for me or or I don't really like that. Can we can we do can we make this kind of change in it or just change the color or change?
[Ryan Paul]
Yeah. Put pockets in it.
[Bill Black]
My personal opinion is if a director. If a person directing a play really knows what they want something to look like, I would just assume they say this. I want a red jacket with black cuffs and a great big collar as opposed to wanting me to come up with that.
I don't that hardly ever happens. But there are times when when, you know, somebody has a really specific thing in their head and all they can tell you about their about your sketches. That's not it.
You know, and if you if you know, I would just assume because I think designing is choosing. Right. And so I'm not necessarily most of the time making things up.
I'm choosing which things from the from the period or the box in which we're doing the play fit to tell the story of that character or that moment in the play. And so if you have a if if you're directing the play and you have a really strong idea about what you want something to look like, I just assume you say make it like this and then I will say, well, make it like that.
[Ryan Paul]
Are you just are you drawing these out with pen and paper or are you using some kind of software program?
[Bill Black]
Oh, I don't. I'm old. I use cheap drawing paper and a number two lead pencil with an eraser on the end of it.
And once we have kind of reached a place where I know that's what it's going to be, then I this is my process. I Xerox that onto nice paper and I usually color them with markers, design markers and a little gel pen and occasionally some colored pencil. Every costume designer does it a different way.
You know, in grad school we were made to do everything with watercolors and and that just slows me down. And my my choice of materials is what will get me through this the quickest. I need to spend no more than an hour or an hour and 15 minutes per sketch or or it's going to take longer than I have.
And I'm not making any money if you know what I mean. Yeah.
[Ryan Paul]
So who then. So you've got this completed sketch for Viola or whatever in a variety of outfits and or what. And then you.
Who. So you submit that to somebody or do you come up and say, OK, to do this particular dress, I need this amount of fabric in this color. Who actually assigns amounts and dollars?
[Bill Black]
Well, for me, I do it. I mean, we are given a budget, which is a total amount of dollars. And some designers like to have that sorted out and like to be told how many yards of fabric to buy.
And, you know, and we do go through a process where somebody evaluates the drawings and the lists and compares that to the budget and says, you know, this will be over budget or this will be not. And here are ways we might. I've worked here long enough that generally I know how it works and I'm able to pretty much say.
We can do this inside the budget we have and I'm generally trusted with that and I haven't failed them yet. Knock on wood. But but some designers like to have.
Like to be given yardages and stuff, and generally I because I because I was also a shop manager and a maker, I I just I know how much yards something takes and I do that on my own.
[Ryan Paul]
So what what is the average over year?
[Bill Black]
I mean, the average budget for, say, a main stage Shakespeare show, but for costumes or shape for a Shakespeare show, Shakespeare show between nine and twelve thousand dollars for all the costumes.
[Ryan Paul]
And you're just providing that's not like like the rosary, for example. Would that be a costume piece?
[Bill Black]
But that's the kind of thing we have. You know, some of it's the kind of thing we have. I mean, that's a different thing, too.
I've worked here a long time. I've made a lot of clothes here and I know what's here. And I sometimes draw things I know are here.
When we did Shakespeare in Love, a lot of those clothes were clothes that we already had because they were clothes I had made for other things, you know, and clothes other people had made, but largely clothes I had made for other things, because I'd done a lot of plays in that period here. And so I knew what was here. Sometimes recently I've been coming in September or coming in this year.
I came in February, but coming in September and going to storage and looking at stuff. And I mean, as you like it, last year I came in September. I pulled a lot of things from stock, took pictures of them, shared that with the director and the drawings were based on those things.
And we used some of those, many of those things. And so that kind of determined how some things were going to go and the rest of it was designed to go with that.
[Ryan Paul]
So is it you kind of, okay, we're going to take the sleeves from this dress and the...
[Bill Black]
No, I don't usually do that. We're going to use this robe. Oh, okay.
We're going to use this doublet. Gotcha.
[Ryan Paul]
Okay, let's take our second break. And then I want to talk about, I think it's fascinating to me to figure about how you've designed it. We've pulled it, bought it, and then now we got to make it and make it work.
So let's talk about making it work here. So the next song that you've chosen is a song from a Sondheim musical, Merrily We Roll Along. It's called Not A Day Goes By.
Why did you choose this song?
[Bill Black]
Well, I mean, I like the song and it's a song that I've performed before and I like, I just like the song. But I will say, not having been prepared to tell you why I picked the song, this occurs to me that when I'm working on a play, and this is the thing I tried to plant in students' brains too, when I'm working on a play, it never leaves me. So it's not like at six o'clock we punch out and I stop thinking about the play.
So from the time I start working on the play, it's not that every moment I'm thinking about the play. But there's rarely a day when, at least for a moment, I'm not thinking, how can I solve this problem? Or how can I, what is it, you know, or I see something and I go, oh, that's a thing that will help me with this particular thing.
So in a corny way, Not A Day Goes By, then I'm not thinking about the play that we're working on. It's like when people say, what's your favorite Shakespeare play? It's like whatever one I'm working on at the moment, because that's the one that's completely obsessing my brain.
[Ryan Paul]
Pericles. It's my favorite Shakespeare play, without a doubt. Pericles.
I love it. All right, this is Not A Day Goes By from Merrily We Roll Along. Not a scene, but you're somewhere a part of my life.
[Lauren Bird]
And it looks like you'll stay as the days go by. Keep thinking, have started forgetting. But I just go on thinking and sweating and cursing and crying and turning and reaching and waking and dying and I.
[Ryan Paul]
But you're still somehow part of my life. And you love, oh, so there's hell to pay. And until I die.
So there's hell to pay. And until I die. After day, after day, after day.
Till the days go by.
[Lauren Bird]
Till the days go by. That was Not A Day Goes By from Merrily We Roll Along. You're listening to the Apex Radio Hour Utah Shakespeare Festival Edition.
I'll turn it back to you, Ryan.
[Ryan Paul]
Thank you, Lauren. We're here with Bill Black. He is a senior costume designer here at the Shakespeare Festival this season.
He's done many, many shows here. How many?
[Bill Black]
35 seasons and I think about 72 or three shows.
[Ryan Paul]
This season in 2026, he designed the costumes for Twelfth Night and for Hamlet. So we've been talking about your process and how it gets to the actual. We have the fabric on site.
And I don't think a lot of people know that while the directors and the designers are hired early in the season process and the actors are cast, they don't get here until early May. You were here earlier, but the actors themselves don't get here until May. And then we really do our first dresses in the first week of June.
So there's really four or five weeks of rehearsal for many shows. And these actors in multiple shows and due to contractual things, they're only dedicating X number of hours a day to each show. So you don't have any measurements.
[Bill Black]
Well, till that May thing, we don't have current measurements till that May thing. We you know, some of these people work here season after season and we do have some. And, you know, and adults don't some parts of adults don't change sizes once they're fully grown.
Your waist will get bigger or smaller or something. But you're how long your arms are won't change. For example, we do also try to collect measurements from other places that that the actors have worked recently.
So sometimes that's helpful. And everybody's measurements are taken on the first day before and after the company meeting so that by the first day we have them. In in my first years here, the casting was actors were cast as part of the company.
And when they arrived here, they auditioned for what roles they would play. And we did not know till Wednesday of the first week what parts people were playing. So it's better now because we know at least a couple of weeks before we get here, you know, who's playing what.
And if you're doing a play like. Like She Loves Me, for example, where there are men's suits and things, some of that stuff you're going to purchase. Those kinds of things can be bought ahead if you have at least rudimentary measurements for people.
Most everything in Hamlet we built new. Most everything in Twelfth Night we built new. And so some of that we couldn't really start until we had their actual measurements.
But most of the crew I get here usually on Wednesday of the week before the actors get here. Most of the crew gets here at the same time as the actors get here. So we you know, we can't really start very much before.
[Ryan Paul]
So have you ever had an experience where you have measurements and an actor shows up and you're like, oh, boy, we were way off?
[Bill Black]
Oh, not too much. I will say that that oftentimes actors I've not worked with before. And what I have to go on is their headshot and they show up.
They never look like that. Never. And we talk about hair, you know, it's like, well, in their heads, it's like they're not going to have that hair when they show up.
[Ryan Paul]
So Ozempic has not changed your business all that much.
[Bill Black]
Not that much. I mean, smaller is easier to deal with than bigger. I mean, you know, if you are bigger than the measurements we had, that's harder to deal with.
And if you're smaller than the measurements we had, because it's easier to take something in than put it out.
[Ryan Paul]
Yeah. I, you know, I have heard. Well, this is not a conversation.
[Bill Black]
I self edited. I've not had too much of that kind of tragedy, though.
[Ryan Paul]
So they they get they get measured. And then who what is this? So you're not actually cutting fabric and sewing the clothes?
[Bill Black]
No, there is a there is a draper who is the person who makes the patterns. There is a firsthand who is a person who takes the draper's pattern and cuts it out of the fabric. And we will first, for most things, cut it out of muslin or something and do a mock up of the costume and fit that on the actor and solve all the problems in the mock up before we cut the real fabric.
[Ryan Paul]
So the draper is take drawing a pattern based upon your illustration. Exactly. So they're kind of unfolding multiple dimensions of the clothes.
[Bill Black]
It's like it's like looking at a box and then looking at a drawing of a box unfolded into a flat thing.
[Ryan Paul]
So that's a skill set in and of itself.
[Bill Black]
It's a very advanced skill set. It's lots of mathematics. And I I did that as I did that professionally for a lot of years.
And so I I am a designer who can say to you, this is how that's here's what those pieces will probably look like. And sometimes drapers think that's helpful. And sometimes they say, I'm the draper.
Stay out of my way.
[Ryan Paul]
So the draper designs the pattern in full scale. Then the first hand takes that pattern and cuts it out because all the pieces out. And then what happens?
[Bill Black]
Well, and then there are stitchers. There are people whose job is to stitch those things up. And the first hand will direct the stitchers in the putting together of those pieces.
And once they're put together, then we have the actors in for a fitting and we try that on. And the draper will using pins and markers and whatever will make the adjustments that need to be made in that. And then the draper takes those adjustments and applies them to the pattern, which they then give to the first hand who cuts out the fabric.
[Ryan Paul]
And that's the muslin is all done. So you only really cut the fabric. You're measuring twice and cutting the fabric.
[Bill Black]
Yes, yes. And and and, you know, at the end of the day, we're all cutting and we're all sewing and we're all. But initially, that's how it goes.
[Ryan Paul]
So in the fitting, in the fitting room, are you are there as well saying, I don't like this or.
[Bill Black]
Could you make that a little shorter? I feel like that needs to be a little tighter. Could the shoulders be a little narrower?
I think that lapels too big. Those kinds of things.
[Ryan Paul]
So and the draper says that I don't know. I don't think so. And you say on the.
[Bill Black]
Well, they. No, no, no. It's never it's never antagonistic.
They make those adjustments and then we look at it together and decide if that's.
[Ryan Paul]
What what I realize there is a percentage of input, but how much input does the actor have in this process?
[Bill Black]
I certainly want to hear what the actor thinks, how they feel about it. You know, if they have an idea for a choice, I'm certainly going to listen to that and see if that's a thing that. Can work or I'm going to discuss with them why I think that's not a good idea or, you know, but they absolutely the actor has.
And certainly about I can't do this movement, I need to do in this or, you know. My job is to help them be the character that they're being.
[Ryan Paul]
Right. Does the is the director in the fittings as well?
[Bill Black]
No, not usually. Sometimes they come see. So the and what I'm less I'll tell you this, what I'm less likely to listen to from an actor is I don't like or would never wear that color.
Gotcha. You know, or something. Right.
[Ryan Paul]
So in this process, then from from getting the measurements of the actor, from you giving that to the Draper, how long is it from Draper to first muslin fitting?
[Bill Black]
Well, it depends on the complexity of the costume, but we move pretty swiftly because we have a lot to do and not very much time. And because of the way, because most of the actors. Certainly most of the actors in Hamlet and Twelfth Night are in Hamlet and Twelfth Night, and many of them are also in Troilus and Cressida, which I keep wanting to call.
Titus Andronicus, because that's the play that starts with the T that comes to my mind first.
[Ryan Paul]
Very different costumes.
[Bill Black]
So so there you know, we can't just have them anytime we want them for a fitting. So there is also some strategy about what days is the play they're not in rehearsing. And that's the day we should call them for the fitting.
And so things are organized in the way in the order in which we make them related to when we might be able to get them for a fitting. There's also the the advanced photo call. And so three or four costumes have to be completely finished early on.
And that and that skews the rotation of the rest of the things a little bit.
[Ryan Paul]
So then it gets done. And then I guess the reason we call it dress rehearsal is that's the first time these actors are in their costumes on the stage.
[Bill Black]
It's the first time we put it all in context with. So so usually before that, for about three days, they've been doing tech rehearsal where they've been going cue to cue, setting up the light cues, the sound cues, how the how the whatever moves on the stage moves, how the chairs get in and out and all of those kinds of things. And then we add costumes at the end to complete the visual picture.
And that first dress rehearsal is the first time we see it all. It's the first time some of them get to do all of the action that they do in it to make sure it's possible to do and that it doesn't get in the way. I, I, I live in fear of a perfect costume for a character getting in the way of them doing the thing.
I like the costume to be supportive, but not vocal. And so so people don't believe me when I say this, but I'm I'm proudest of the work when people leave the theater and. Don't what they are thinking about is not how pretty the clothes were.
But how sad it is that Hamlet couldn't, you know, work his way through the trauma that he's having or whatever. You know how great it is that Viola and Orsino get together at the end and that there's another one. So Olivia can have one, too.
And, you know.
[Ryan Paul]
So when you're I mean, I've been to dress rehearsals and been to three of the Shakespeare ones this season. And I see you kind of walking around or in the back and are you just looking for angles? What are you really looking for there?
[Bill Black]
Well, most of the time I just sit and watch it. And and but occasionally I will go somewhere else to see what it looks like from, you know, from another angle, because does something that shouldn't show show or something that should show not show or, you know.
[Ryan Paul]
Is it often that the changes have to be made?
[Bill Black]
It's not not giant changes. I mean, we are changing in Hamlet. We are changing Gertrude's dress because the color was not working.
And so we're making a different color dress. Oftentimes, some things have to be dyed down a little bit because they're too glary. You know, like things are too white.
So there are a few things in both of these shows that are getting dipped down to a dingier color. So they don't look so glary. They'll still look like they're white, but they won't be blinding.
[Ryan Paul]
Shockingly white.
[Bill Black]
Yeah. Things like that. Usually it's things like that.
Sometimes, you know, something just doesn't work. And and. It's it's both an awful thing and a kind of exciting thing to try to navigate the problem and figure out, solve how to fix it in two days, because we generally have two days between dress rehearsals.
I can remember a taming of the shrew where the dress that Kate was wearing at the end of the play was not working for the actor or the director. I thought it was great, but neither of them liked it. And so and that was a Saturday night.
And so on Sunday morning, I went digging around to see what kind of fabric I could find. And we came up with a new idea. And by Wednesday at the next dress rehearsal, she had a different dress.
[Ryan Paul]
And liked it.
[Bill Black]
And liked it. Well, because, you know, I was told what they didn't like about it. And so I just did something that wasn't that.
[Ryan Paul]
That's a bumper sticker. I just did something that wasn't that.
[Bill Black]
Well, so the thing I most liked about it was the thing they didn't like. So. So how do you how do they take care of these then?
[Ryan Paul]
I mean, well, you're not making multiple Viola dresses.
[Bill Black]
No, no, no. And Viola doesn't really have a dress. She dresses a boy for most of the play.
She does have a kind of a trick dress at the beginning, but I don't want to give that away. Yeah. There is a wardrobe crew who a large number of people that nobody in the audience ever sees backstage who assist with getting the actors dressed, making their changes and who maintain the clothes between performances.
And so there's laundry facility and, you know, there are there's a craft person and some other people who who who were on for the whole season who fix things.
[Ryan Paul]
And are these like machine washable clothes? Not all of them.
[Bill Black]
Some. Everybody's got a skin part that washes like a T-shirt or the thing closest to their body usually is a washable.
[Ryan Paul]
Hmm. Interesting.
[Bill Black]
They do get dry cleaned from time to time. Right.
[Ryan Paul]
So are you like the directors in the sense that once the show opens, you're done and you go home?
[Bill Black]
Essentially, yes. Once the play is open, I'm I'm dismissed and I do get the performance reports. And so it's interesting for me to see what's, you know, how it's going.
And if if something big happened, I would probably be consulted about. You know, for example, if halfway through the season we had to replace a person and they were radically different from the person, I might be consulted about how. You know, if there's anything different.
But usually once I'm gone, I'm pretty much out of it.
[Ryan Paul]
Like last season when I had to fill in for Jeffrey Kent as Mark Antony. That was a joke. Radically different.
So.
[Bill Black]
But I would love you in that blue eyeshadow.
[Ryan Paul]
So the you talked about your process and I would imagine it would be difficult as deeply involved as you get to be dealing with multiple trains on the tracks. So you finish here and I mean, how much space do you have between your next costume designing gig?
[Bill Black]
Well, now that's not applicable because technically I'm retired. So, I mean, I do have two productions of Christmas Carol that remount every year, but I don't even have to go to those.
[Ryan Paul]
They just reuse the same.
[Bill Black]
They just send me a check. I mean, if something is going to change last season, one of them I had to go because we changed a character and I went for two days and saw I sent them the drawing, sent them the fabric, went for two days and saw the thing on stage. And.
You know, that was it in the before I retired, I generally had about. Five or six productions a year, counting the two here and and you have to work on them simultaneously because the deadlines overlap and and, you know, I have always said from from concept to preliminary design, you get two weeks of work and I can do that two weeks of work over the course of several months or I can do it in October or I can do it in February. But if you if we start in October and something's not due till February, do not think that I'm going to work every day from October to February on that.
You know, you get about two weeks of time at the drawing table unless it's humongous, you know, and then you get another week of fixes and coloring and, you know, and that's the process. And so you can interweave those mean. I can remember.
Leaving for two days from here during the bill to go to Denver and have a meeting about something I was going to do there in the fall and then coming back here and while I was working in the daytime on the show here at night, I was drawing that show. So, I mean, you have to be able to compartmentalize a little bit and and say, OK, now I'm thinking about and working about on this thing. And that doesn't mean that that there wouldn't be a moment when you're sitting at the table in the shop here sewing on something.
Your mind isn't going, how am I going to solve this thing in the other play? You know, just like you daydream when you're lecturing in class, but your mind is somewhere else. I certainly had that experience.
[Ryan Paul]
Yeah, you're right. I guess sometimes there is a bit of an autopilot.
[Bill Black]
You know, it's a juggling act. Right.
[Ryan Paul]
You tell the story and the story is the story.
[Bill Black]
Yeah, yeah.
[Ryan Paul]
So what if I were to look at Bill Black's greatest hits when you think back on the 30 years here or in general, I mean, in your work, what what two or three things do you just say this was? I mean, I'm sure it's all good, but I mean, what two or three things really stick out at you as far as that? This was this was it for you here.
[Bill Black]
I would say the Mikado. Which, sadly, no one can ever do again. That Hamlet 10 years ago or however long ago that was the sort of Russian imperial Hamlet.
[Ryan Paul]
The Matt Feld Hamlet?
[Bill Black]
Yes, yes. You can't take it with you, oddly, and maybe a funny thing happened on the way to the forum. But but I have loved everything I did here.
I mean, I could probably I won't do it, but I probably could name three or four plays where I think, I'm glad that's over. I don't have to do that again. You know, because like I say, when I'm in it, I'm in it.
And it's the most important thing in my life for that six weeks or whatever.
[Ryan Paul]
Well done. Let's take our last break and then we'll come back with our final segment. So this song is from a musical, a Gilbert and Sullivan piece called The Pirates of Penzance, Poor Wandering One.
Why did you choose this one?
[Bill Black]
Well, partly because I love a color choice soprano. I mean, I just I you know, I would I might also choose Glitter and Be Gay from Candide because it's the same sort of thing. And in fact, I have done a Candide and Pirates of Penzance, which both had Cecilia Aioli singing those songs.
The last Pirates we did, Cecilia played played. What's her name? What is just what's her name?
Whatever that character's name is, I can't think of it right now.
[Ryan Paul]
Let's look it up so we can.
[Bill Black]
But I but I I like the that she's saying that she's saying he says, you know, is he says before the song, is there not one maiden here who's who has low expectations and and would take me on? And, you know, they all shun him. And then she says, of course, I would take take take any of these.
Take me. The character's name, I believe, is Mabel. It is Mabel.
It is Mabel. Tis I, tis Mabel, tis Mabel.
[Ryan Paul]
We don't need to play the song now. All right. So this is Poor Wandering One featuring Linda Ronstadt as Mabel from the Pirates of Penzance.
[Reese Whitaker]
For shame, for shame, for shame.
[Lauren Bird]
Though thou hast shown strength, take heart, grace, thy steps retrace.
[Bill Black]
Take heart, count it two hours. Take it in heart, one hour. Take heart, it is a show.
Take it in heart, one hour.
[Lauren Bird]
Though thou hast shown strength, take heart, grace, thy steps retrace. One, two, three, four. Take heart, take heart.
Take heart. That was Poor Wandering One from Pirates of Penzance. You're listening to the Apex Radio Hour Utah Shakespeare Festival Edition.
I'll turn it back to you, Ryan.
[Ryan Paul]
Thank you, Lauren. This is our final segment. And those who've listened to our podcast radio show before know that this is where we ask what's bringing us joy.
We've been here for the last little bit with Bill Black. He's a senior costume designer here at the Utah Shakespeare Festival. This season he designed costumes for Twelfth Night and for Hamlet.
So, Bill Black, what are you currently watching, reading, listening to, or playing that is bringing you joy?
[Bill Black]
Well, I'm not currently watching anything because I'm working long days. I love books that are based on—this is going to sound very nerdy—I love books that are based on the plot lines of Shakespeare plays. And this book is called The Story of Edgar Sautel.
And it's about dog breeders, but it is based on the Hamlet plot. And it's timely to read that again. This is not the first time I've read it, but read that again while working on Hamlet.
And what brings me joy about it is how—I think the book's not necessarily only for people who know Hamlet. But what brings me joy is how clever the elements of the plot in Hamlet are woven into this thing that's about dog breeders. And when I encounter one to imagine, if I didn't know Hamlet, how that might land differently than it lands with me.
My assistant, Andrew Howder, and I sit in rehearsal and we play this game where I try to whisper to him the next line in Hamlet. And I'm almost always right, because I just know the play really well. I mean, I couldn't do any of those speeches, but, you know, I lean over and say, Now is the very witching time of night.
And then the actress says that, and it's a game. So this book has entertained me vastly because I identify those moments and think, oh, so that's Polonius.
[Ryan Paul]
Yeah. So remind me of the title again?
[Bill Black]
The Story of Edgar Sautel. The Story of Edgar Sautel.
[Ryan Paul]
Beautiful. Lauren Bird, what are you currently watching, reading, listening to, or playing that is bringing you joy?
[Lauren Bird]
So actually, while I was driving down, well, up here, I finally started The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lyon. And it's one that I've gotten recommended to me by, like, three different people in real life.
And then, like, a couple of people that I follow on Instagram have all been talking about it recently. And the first one's only, like, three hours. So I was like, OK, I'll listen to it.
And it's just delightful. I love me some, like, period drama stuff. And it's just really fun and light.
And I'm enjoying it so far.
[Ryan Paul]
That has been bantered around my house and my extended family. We just had a family event last weekend.
[Lauren Bird]
I'd like two people recommend it in the span of two days a couple weeks ago. So I'm like, well, I guess I need to read it now.
[Ryan Paul]
There you go.
[Lauren Bird]
Yeah. What about you, Ryan? What are you currently watching, reading, listening to, or playing that's bringing you joy?
[Ryan Paul]
I am watching a television show that I'm thoroughly enjoying. And, in fact, my wife, Cammie, who works at the Shakespeare Festival, we talk about this. And I'm reminded of you every episode.
And it's a show called The Gilded Age on HBO. It's a Julian Fellowes piece. It's not your typical HBO, you know, series.
But I got to tell you, it is compelling. Cammie's watched it all the way through. I'm working my way through with her.
I mean, of course, as a historian, I find that interesting. But the costumes in this show are absolutely amazing to me. I can't imagine, you know, a life where you have to change your clothes seven times a day, right?
[Bill Black]
Well, that's the late Victorians.
[Ryan Paul]
Yeah. So, remember, I just keep thinking, every time I see it, I think, I wonder what Bill Black thinks of this show. I wonder what he thinks about The Gilded Age.
I wonder. So, what do you think of The Gilded Age?
[Bill Black]
I like it. The clothes are fancy. They're a little costumey.
But I think they are telling the story that they're trying to tell there. And I'm often reminded, I lived in Tennessee for 43 years, just about 100 miles from the Biltmore House. And I'm reminded of the Biltmore House.
And the Biltmores would have been part of that circle. In the settings in that story.
[Ryan Paul]
Well, I mean, The Gilded Age Season 4 premieres soon. So, we're finishing Season 3. So, The Gilded Age, that's what's bringing me joy.
Bill Black, thank you for being here. We're going to go out with your fourth song, which is And I'll Be There by Michael Feinstein. Why did you choose this one?
[Bill Black]
I am a hopeless romantic. And these kinds of, I like singing these kinds of mushy. So, it's a mushy song.
You know, it's intended to bring a little tear to your eye. And it's the kind of song that I like performing when I'm singing. That's why.
[Ryan Paul]
It's a beautiful song. I've never heard it before. It's a beautiful song.
So, thank you for being here, Bill Black. Thank you for listening to this Apex Radio Hour Shakespeare Festival Edition. This season, if you want interesting tickets or any other information, you can visit bard.org.
There are six plays going on currently soon. And then the other two will be added in the next couple weeks. We have, in the Engelstad Theatre, Twelfth Night, Torilus and Cressida, and Hamlet.
In the Randall Theatre, we have Something Rotten, She Loves Me, and See How They Run. And in the Ains Theatre, which will open the first part of July, we have the Book Cub play and Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. Thanks again to Bill Black.
[Bill Black]
Thank you.
[Ryan Paul]
Thanks again to Lauren Bird. And in the words of the great American poet Bill Withers, I wish you well. And this is And I'll Be There by Michael Feinstein.
And I'll Be There by Michael Feinstein. Demons inside you And it's more than a soul can You must never fear Disappear Desert you May love Enslave you Flee Like the circus Just left town You just tell me if anything hurts you I swear Sure as rainbows bend My forever friend I can promise you I A kiss and a smile Then dream for a while