Go behind the scenes of the Randall Theater on this special Utah Shakespeare Festival edition of the APEX Radio Hour with host Ryan Paul. Acclaimed scenic designer Jo Winiarski shares her incredible 23-year journey crafting more than 40 productions for the festival, including the intricate multi-show repertory setups for Something Rotten, She Loves Me, and See How They Run. Discover the unique blend of visual art, spatial engineering, and collaborative problem-solving required to bring shifting theatrical worlds to life.
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[Reese Whitaker]
You are listening to the Apex Hour hosted by Ryan Paul on KSUU Thunder 91.1. This show allows more personal time with our guests, allowing them to give us their stories and opinions. We will also give you new music to listen to, hoping you enjoy some new sounds and genres. Welcome to this episode of the Apex Hour.
[Lauren Bird]
Welcome to the Apex Radio Hour, Utah Shakespeare Festival edition. I'm producer Lauren Bird and I'm here today with the director of Apex and Professor of History Ryan Paul and our special guest, Joe Winarski. I'll turn it over to you, Ryan.
[Ryan Paul]
Thank you, Lauren. We are so excited to have Joe Winarski here in the studio with us. Joe is someone who I've admired for my 15, 20 years doing stuff at the festival.
If you've been to the festival, you have seen her work, whether you know it or not, and it is a amazing piece of science and craft. Joe Winarski is one of the scenic designers here at the festival and has been here for a while. Thanks for being here.
[Jo Winiarski]
You're welcome.
[Ryan Paul]
I always like to start with a question of how we get to now. If you can talk to me about where you're from and what led you to do what you do.
[Jo Winiarski]
Sure. I am a native of New Jersey and I grew up in a household. My mom was a school teacher, so I was read to a lot.
I made a lot of stuff as a kid, but when I was little, I thought I was going to be a performer. I was in school plays and everything like that for a long time. Growing up in New Jersey, this is not disparaging on New Jersey, but growing up the way I did, you don't know all the roles that there are in theater and in a career in the arts.
I got very lucky that I went to a summer arts camp in New Jersey that was called the Summer Arts Institute. It doesn't exist any longer, but back in the day, it was on Rutgers campus and I became part of one of the programs there that was called InterArts. It was a program that was for interdisciplinary artists, students who did more than one thing.
I thought I was an actor and this wonderful teacher, Daryl Wilson, started getting me doing visual arts. I really didn't start drawing or anything like that in any serious way until I was 17. It was through that that I realized that I had an interest in a proclivity for visual arts.
I went to NYU as an undergrad as an actor, so my undergraduate degree is in acting. While I was there, the way the NYU studio system is set up, there is a studio called Playwrights Horizons Theater School. At Playwrights Horizons Theater School, I met David Byrne, not of the Talking Heads, David Byrne, the scenic designer.
He sort of pulled me under his wing and he was like, hey, I think you're a set designer. I started taking as many design and design-related classes like drafting and those sorts of things while I was an undergrad without changing my degree. I finished school.
I was in a show for a year and it was while working outside of school that I realized, oh, I actually am a scenic designer. I spent the next several years doing what I call, you yourself a hammer in a dream theater, like the off-off Broadway stuff that you're building yourself. I was walking down Canal Street one day carrying some heavy piece of something for a show I was doing and I was like, gosh, I need to go to graduate school because I'm missing the skill set to move outside of I'm the designer, I'm the builder, I'm the technical director, I'm the painter, till I get to work professionally.
So then I went to graduate school and I actually met, while I was an undergrad, Beowulf Borat. When I finished graduate school, he said to me, hey, I think I might have a job for you. Can you go out to the Utah Shakespeare Festival as my assistant?
And that is how I ended up sitting across from you.
[Ryan Paul]
Well, first of all, you got to have some pretty serious commitment as a parent to name your kid Beowulf, right? I mean, that's the first thing. So as a kid in New Jersey, what's the first thing you remember wanting to be when you grew up?
[Jo Winiarski]
I wanted to be a bareback rider in the circus. I wanted to be in the circus, you know? And I feel like maybe I've done that.
[Ryan Paul]
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe not bareback, but yeah.
[Jo Winiarski]
You know the women who like wear the sparkly things and ride the horses? Oh, I wanted that to be. I don't even know how to ride a horse.
I don't know where this dream came from.
[Ryan Paul]
Yet.
[Jo Winiarski]
Yet.
[Ryan Paul]
So I'm interested in your, I mean, you said you wanted to be an actor. Where does theater come into your life? I mean, I have a note.
So Lauren, by the way, prepares an extensive thing. I have a note that your first involvement in theater was in The Runaway Snowman.
[Jo Winiarski]
Yes, in second grade. In second grade. I played Frida Fastalk, and she's the one who comes to try and make the snowman into a star.
[Ryan Paul]
And you were the star of the show.
[Jo Winiarski]
No, I was just Frida Fastalk.
[Ryan Paul]
So where does this idea of wanting to do that come? Is it from your parents? Do you see, is it through looking at the circus?
I mean, where does that come into saying, this is what I want to do?
[Jo Winiarski]
You know, I don't actually know like where, you know, my parents, you know, supported me. You know, they definitely, you know, I took all the tap and dance classes as a little kid and all that stuff. I just always loved like things that are theatrical.
You know, I always, I loved, you know, obviously like I talked about wanting to wear a sparkly costume and ride a horse. You know, I always loved spectacle. And I think like this, I'm not speaking eloquently about this.
I think it was just, you know, in school and being in the school plays and, you know, the community that's built and, you know, creating theater I was really excited about and being part of something.
[Ryan Paul]
So when you said to your parents, you know what I want to do is I want to be an actor. They said, oh, how was, they were not surprised?
[Jo Winiarski]
My, no, they were not surprised. My father wanted me, he always thought I should like be an engineer or, you know, something like that. But he's been gone a long time now.
He passed away almost 20 years ago. But he was just always really supportive, which is, I mean, you can't be luckier than that, you know? And the one of the things that makes me sad is that like when he passed away, I was only just starting to really make a career, you know?
And there's no regrets, but it does, I wished he had lived long enough to see that like, you know, supporting me was actually an okay thing to, you know, like was actually an okay choice.
[Ryan Paul]
That it worked out. That it worked out, yeah. So Lauren here, you're looking at your future again?
You've had, we have been in the studio, the crystal ball has been shown.
[Lauren Bird]
Oh yeah, oh yeah.
[Ryan Paul]
Lauren is an engineering major.
[Reese Whitaker]
I am, yep. And I love theater. So just all the things, you know?
[Ryan Paul]
So do you ever watch John Oliver? I do. So you know how like they have the beginning story and then like, and now this, and it's always someone like, you know, Frank Jackson loves, you know, the sun.
And it's like, if this was the John Oliver, it would be like how many times I've referred to, Lauren's an engineer, Lauren's an engineer. Ryan wants you to know that Lauren's an engineer. So the, you go to graduate school and we'll pick up with the Shakespeare Festival here in a minute, but I want to talk about the various aspects of what you do.
So for example, if you look at your resume or your CV, there's scenic designer, there's art director and a few other things there. What is the difference between say an art director? Because you did that for Seth Meyers, right?
I mean, you were his art director versus a scenic designer. Are they interchangeable?
[Jo Winiarski]
They're two very different jobs. I would say being an art director for the theater people out there is very much like being an associate designer. The production designer on Late Night is a woman named Ellen Waggett.
She's a fantastic designer and just a huge impact on my life and how I make, how I design and how I think about designing and also like how I think about a scope of a career. The art director is the person who does all the draft. Like, so Ellen would design something and then I would draft it, get the drawings ready.
I would see it through the shop. I would see it through getting loaded in. So it's more the nuts and bolts, you know, planning, organizing, you know, a lot of my job on Late Night was I drew a lot of band plots, you know, stuff like that.
It's the more, it's not the design side, but it's all the support work that needs to happen for design to occur.
[Ryan Paul]
So if Seth Meyers wants a new desk, she designs it and you draw it and somebody else builds it.
[Jo Winiarski]
Yeah.
[Ryan Paul]
Very cool. So let's, you shift then from being an actor to creating the world, right? In which these actors involve themselves in.
And what was the first, when you think about, I am now a professional scenic designer, what's the first show?
[Jo Winiarski]
Oh my goodness. What's the, oh, I should have prepared for this. It's been a long time.
I guess, you know, I started designing before graduate school for Synesthetic Theater Company that doesn't exist anymore. But doing that work, I would say would be the first like professional, if you consider like people pay tickets to come see it, you know, sort of thing. And that was working with a group of artists that I knew from undergrad, you know.
So I think a lot of my career was just moving my role over, you know, and making art with people I already knew, you know, so it was easy to make that, it made that transition make sense because it was sort of, it was, you know, in a collaborative process with artists that I had worked with in other capacities.
[Ryan Paul]
So in your work is the, is it like you put a shingle out that says Joe Winarski, scenic designer and people say, oh, I'm looking for a scenic designer or is most of your work through people that you knew and then you show yourself to be so talented and then theaters come back to you?
[Jo Winiarski]
I don't, I've gotten very few jobs by cold, like for me, that doesn't work. Like the cold resume sending, you know, I can trace almost all of my work back, you know, in the Kevin Bacon six degrees sort of way. I can trace almost every job I've had back to two people, back to Beowulf Borat and to Star Con, the two people I knew that sort of wrote, you know, the reason I ended up on Late Night is because in graduate school, I was the property master for undergraduate drama.
And so my friend Star is an art director and she was working on a show called Craft Corner Deathmatch. And she was like, hey, do you want to prop this show? And I was like, who doesn't want to work on a show called Craft Corner Deathmatch?
And so I propped that show and Ellen Waggett was the production designer. Do you know what I mean? So it's like, oh, you can take all these little, you know, this job that wasn't as an art director and wasn't as a designer led to many years later becoming the art director on Late Night with Seth Meyers.
[Ryan Paul]
So, which is fascinating to me, how that all works out, right? How we connect in those ways and the world is smaller than we think that it is. If we really look at it, which I think is a pretty brilliant way to have a career.
[Jo Winiarski]
Well, I think so. I think, you know, I get asked to speak to young designers a lot and people are like, oh, what's the advice you would give? And that's my advice is like, do a good job, you know?
No matter what role you're in, you know, maybe you are working as the props person, you know, and that's not the job you want to be doing, but that's the job you're doing at this moment and that you're supporting this work and work begets work, you know, I think. Well, and don't be a jerk. Well, I mean, that's the number one rule, like, you know, turn your stuff in on time and be kind.
[Ryan Paul]
So, let's talk about your then move to the festival. You did a lot of things and you journeymaned, if you will, an apprentice and then went to school and now this guy says, hey, come work with me at the Utah Shakespeare Festival. How long ago was that?
That was 23 years ago. 23 years ago. So you come here and were you designing for, so just to be, for people to be aware, currently we hire one designer for the space, right?
So you're designing in the Randall, so you're designing this season, Something Rotten, She Loves Me and See How They Run. But that hasn't always been the case, right?
[Jo Winiarski]
No, it's always the case that it's one designer for one theater.
[Ryan Paul]
For one theater.
[Jo Winiarski]
So it's the same person, like all three Angleside shows are designed by Apollo. You know, I'm doing all three in the Randall and then Jason Sims is doing the two in the Yanes.
[Ryan Paul]
So when you came here 23 years ago, we really had the Randall and the Adams, right? Which theater did you design for?
[Jo Winiarski]
I was the assistant 23 years ago in the Randall. I never designed in the Adams. Okay, and you haven't designed in the Angleside.
I have, I've done one season.
[Ryan Paul]
And I would imagine that being familiar, I mean, 23 years in the Randall, you're pretty familiar with that space.
[Jo Winiarski]
I feel like I know the Randall theater, just like the back of my hand. I've designed 40 plus shows in the Randall.
[Ryan Paul]
So what are the quirks that we need to know about the Randall?
[Jo Winiarski]
The side sight lines are really tough. The outside seats are really outside. And the proscenium is really wide, right?
And so you want to narrow the audience's focus, the aperture you want. You know, I often, if you look at most of my work, I often design portals to bring the space in, but you can only come in so far before you start messing with the sight lines of the outermost seats. I think that game of like how to make sure that those extreme seats can see the show and maybe not every last little thing, but in a way that doesn't affect their experience of the show, is the most difficult thing about the Randall.
[Ryan Paul]
So when you're hired by the artistic director, in this case, John D'Antonio, and he says, hey, we want you to come and design, here are the plays, design them, right? When does that process happen for many of our listeners? So we're talking right now, we'll say in the 2026 season for these three shows, when do they start looking to you and saying, hey, we want you to come back next year?
[Jo Winiarski]
It's usually about when the season opens. So it's a year, about a year out.
[Ryan Paul]
And has there ever been a time when you've said, oh, that's going to be tough? Or is that every year?
[Jo Winiarski]
This year, I was like, oh, you know, two musicals in rep is tough.
[Ryan Paul]
So in your 40 plus shows in the Randall, are there any that stand out? Like if I was looking at Joe Winarski's top five shows, and I get that it's hard to choose between the kids and that kind of thing, but there has to have been, maybe not an entire design, but in the 40 plus shows, a few things that you said, I am so, this is amazing that we did this.
[Jo Winiarski]
Oh, well, I mean, I would say one of the, this is amazing that we did this, not my favorite design. I would say the thing that I think this season is the most, this is amazing that we did this, because, and she loves me, we have a turntable. So we are repping a turntable, which I still can't believe, I mean, Richard Curtain, he's just- Who's the production manager.
He's a production manager, who is also just a brilliant technical director, is the one who I, you know, when we started talking about the show and thinking about, I spoke to you a little bit about this before we started, you know, she loves me. One of the things about scenery and telling a story scenically is how does the show move and how does the scenic design support the emotional container of the show? And I was saying to you earlier that, you know, the Randall does have a fly system, so you can fly scenery in and out and- Which means move it up and down.
Move it up and down. Like, you know, I kind of described it as a guillotine, you know, like up and down, which is, I don't mean to be dark about it, it's just an easy way to think about it. And She Loves Me is this beautiful, smaller jewel box of a show that's about finding love and opening yourself up and seeing things that are before you.
And to have the shop, which has to open and close multiple times during the course of the show, to have that shop open and close in a way, like, for example, I could have flown the front of the shop in and out, but that didn't feel like it's telling the right emotional story, it's how the scenery moves. And so I started talking to Richard very early on, I was like, this show needs a turntable. We need to be able for the journey of us in and out of the show to feel softer and musical.
And not that flying scenery doesn't feel musical, it does sometimes, but it just seemed like that was the way, you know, that was the way we should be thinking about the scenery moving. And he figured it out. I cannot take credit for the turntable working.
That was not my brain, you know. What I spent most of the time doing, designing that show, was trying to figure out the sight lines of how to mask the upstage area so that we can change in Amalia's bedroom unseen and still not mess with those side sight lines seeing totally into the shop. But yeah, so that was, I think, the thing that's most thrilling that I've done in all my years.
[Ryan Paul]
So would you say that the opening of the perfumery is almost like a, you know, musical cigarette or candy box? I might be. That reference will land when you see the show, right?
Exactly. And I had a chance to see it last night in a dress rehearsal. To talk about the shows in our orientations, the education team has to see them before they premiere.
And so I had a chance to go to the dress rehearsal last night. And it's a beautiful show. I mean, it is a nice show, but the set, the backdrop, I mean, it is really how you and Richard have figured that out is, for me, magical.
For you, it's probably scientific. And, you know, Archimedes and levers and wires. But for me, it's like we talked about this.
There's these cabinets that come in and it's almost like watching, you know, it's art to see how that, it's a ballet to see how that works.
[Jo Winiarski]
Mikey and I, the director, Michael Perman, and I spent a lot of time months ago talking about how the set moves and how the transitions move and planning out all the turntable locations. Like when the set sort of askew when we're in the workroom, like all of those things. And he has staged all these beautiful moments of life in the shop as we're rotating in and out of the shop.
That just sort of, I think, gives a fullness to the world. And also, you know, I have to give credit to Grant Hildenkamp as well. He's the technical director, not to leave him out of the equation.
It was just the conversation started with Richard all that time ago.
[Ryan Paul]
So we're going to take our first break here, but I want, and where we're going to pick up, I think when we come back, is this idea of, you mentioned that we're repping the show, the turntables in rep. And we'll define a little bit of what that means and how this all fits together inside the sandbox of the Randall. Because what you're seeing on stage is just really a small part of the sandbox, right?
Yeah. So let's talk about that. So we're going to take a first break.
For those of you who've listened to the podcast or the show before, know that we ask our guests, because we don't do commercials, to come up with some songs that, for whatever reason, resonate with them. And I will tell you that just like her designs, Joe Wanarski did not disappoint when it comes to her eclectic song choices. So we're going to start with a band that I, as a young, you know, high school kid, maybe even a little bit younger than that, was pretty critical to my life.
Whitesnake, right? Certainly the music videos were for a young teenage boy. Amazing.
So this is a song that you chose called Still of the Night by Whitesnake. Why did you choose this song?
[Jo Winiarski]
I chose Whitesnake because I wanted to take a moment just to talk about hair metal and how much I, I mean, I grew up in New Jersey in the 80s. I love hair metal. But also when I think about it, you know, as an older adult, there is nothing more theatrical than hair metal, you know?
And I also chose Whitesnake particularly, not that the song is in the show, but Rock of Ages, the show, was a huge part of my life. I was the associate designer on it with Beowulf for many, many, many incarnations of that show. And so there's a love of hair metal.
There's a love of Whitesnake. Rock on.
[Ryan Paul]
Okay. This is Still of the Night by Whitesnake.
[Jo Winiarski]
Ooh, baby. In the still of the night. In the cool moonlight.
I feel my heart is aching. In the still of the night.
[Ryan Paul]
Oh, baby. Lost. Me.
Lost.
[Lauren Bird]
No. You gotta give me love. You gotta give me some love.
I've given everything. Can't keep away. Still of the night.
I feel my heart is aching. Still of the night. I feel my heart beating, honey.
Tell me I've gotta have more. Oh, you're so sweet, I just want a little love from you. Feel your body.
Can you stand the night? Oh, yeah.
[Reese Whitaker]
Can you stand the night? I will be speaking out your call. Can you stand the night?
Can you stand the night?
[Lauren Bird]
That was Still of the Night by Whitesnake. You're listening to the Apex Radio Hour, Utah Shakespeare Festival Edition. I'll turn it back to you, Ryan.
[Ryan Paul]
Thanks, Lauren. I can't tell you how happy that makes me that that was the case. I will tell you this, that I wore out my copy of Stay Hungry by Twisted Sister.
I can still see myself in Riverdale, Utah, listening to that album over and over and over again. The song that I loved was not the one you're going to think it is, Lauren. You know, you always think it's, we're not going to take it, but that's not the one.
And the one I can't, that's not, I can't tell you what it is. But I'll sing it for you afterwards. So we're here with Jo Winarski.
She is the scenic director for the Randall shows, The Season, Something Rotten. She loves me and See How They Run. She has been a critical and integral part of our seasons for 23 years, 40 plus shows she's designed.
And you have seen her work before. We left off talking about the Randall Theater and what it meant to be in rep. So will you define for us what that means?
[Jo Winiarski]
Sure. So repertory theater is when a single space, like the Randall, has multiple shows in it. And what's unique about the Utah Shakespeare Festival, which there's very few places still that do this, is you can see a matinee of one show and see a performance of a different show that same evening.
So the scenery is in repertory, meaning that we switch out the entire set, you know, in generally about 90 minutes from one show to another. So all three shows live in the same box.
[Ryan Paul]
So what you're really saying is no one wants to play Jenga with you. You don't want to play Jenga with me. So if you, and I should say that we've talked about Richard Gurtain here before, just now, but if you get a chance during the season to go to Repertory Magic, there's something they've been doing just for a few years, where you can get a fairly inexpensive ticket and watch this changeover.
And it really is amazing to think about. So all of the sets for all three shows have to fit in this space. Yes.
And when you design those shows, you keep that in mind. Yes.
[Jo Winiarski]
It's, you know, I try to think of the season as one big show with three very distinct acts, right? Because you only have that container. And the hardest thing I think is, and the reason, you know, going back to earlier, the reason it's one designer in one space is at least I'm only negotiating with myself.
You know, you have to make a lot of choices of like, well, for this show, this downstage line set, which is how we fly scenery now on line sets, is better. But I really, but then how am I gonna get the chandelier to hang for see how they run far enough downstage that it doesn't look goofy. You know, it's all like a negotiation of space to make all three shows feel as unique as possible and as different as possible while managing the real estate.
[Ryan Paul]
Because they don't share the same pieces at all. No. Right.
Like, like it is a complete, I mean, it seems to me the easy thing to do is say, oh, we're just going to frame every show in this, this archway that's just going to stay there. Wouldn't that be disappointing? Well, yeah.
It's not the Winarski way.
[Jo Winiarski]
Well, I mean, you know, I feel like one of the biggest joys of coming to the festival and what people get to do is, you know, you can come and see when the season is completely up, you know, eight shows, including green show, you know, on top of that, the green shows, and have a different experience for each of those shows and different experience cast wise, a different experience, you know, content wise, and in different completely different experience scenically and lighting.
[Ryan Paul]
And, you know, so the question then is, is that you have something as amazing as this turntable. Does it come back? Like next season?
I don't know.
[Jo Winiarski]
I'm just saying in general, we're talking about where do we save it?
[Ryan Paul]
Does this tool I mean, because obviously, you know, a lot of things are torn down and it's not as if the festival has, you know, it's not like the end of Raiders of the Lost Ark where they have this big warehouse that, you know, I mean, we do have one, but where all the stuff is stored. So you got to make some choices about what you keep more intact, right?
[Jo Winiarski]
Yeah, I mean, I hope this isn't like, you know, letting people know too much how, how, how we make it. But the Something Rotten Portal, it's its fourth season on stage. It looks a little different.
You know, we've messed with it a bunch. But I think I do think that Portal's done after this season, but it's gotten a little tired. But I do.
One of the great things about having done so many seasons and knowing what's there and having designed a lot of it myself, because I haven't done every season in the past 23 years, but is that I have been able to use old, you know, at the end of last season, I was like, Hey, can we keep that earnest garden wall? And that was a way to save resources and be more, you know, the more environmental reuse, recycle, you know, so that earnest garden wall appears in one of the shows in a different way. But you know, it's in the portal from Something Rotten was in last season, you know, looking, you know, modified, but you reusing stuff to try and, you know, keep budgets in check and also to not just be throwing stuff out.
[Ryan Paul]
Which I hadn't thought about this until just now that it's important then to know, for example, that if you're coming back the next season, so because, you know, you know, well ahead of time before we announce it to the public, what the next season show is shows are in 2027. And so to say, well, I mean, you're, are you all, you're still thinking that far ahead to say, well, this component might be able something that you need to keep.
[Jo Winiarski]
Yeah. I mean, we, to make decisions before the season closes to be like, Oh, when, you know, when we take this set apart, let's, you know, store this, this, and this. Cause I think that these elements can be reused or, you know.
[Ryan Paul]
So in the, in the Randall this season, we have the turntable. Are there any other scenic elements that the audiences should really be looking for that you think?
[Jo Winiarski]
Oh, I mean, I think, um...
[Ryan Paul]
Besides the portal in Something Rotten to say goodbye?
[Jo Winiarski]
Yeah. To say, to think like, how much shows have I seen that in? Maybe it should be like a contest.
Can you, cause it looks, you know, different, but, um...
[Ryan Paul]
A seasonal scavenger hunt.
[Jo Winiarski]
Exactly. A seasonal, um, well, I will say Something Rotten was designed, uh, as a loving homage to Rain Stage of, of the olden days. So if you do see the Something Rotten set and you were, and ever saw something on Rain Stage, which I never designed, but, uh, know of it well, that set is definitely a wink and a nod to, to the Rain Stage.
[Ryan Paul]
So we should mention that in the, in the old days. In the old days. Before we, before we moved over to the Beverly, the, the Adams Theater was outside, obviously like the Ingolstadt.
And when it rained, they had used the, the SU Auditorium and they built not exactly a mirror image, but similar set elements so they could move the, the acting inside, the play inside. We don't do that anymore. So we don't have that, the Rain Stage, but that's, that's cool for, that's a good Easter egg to think about.
So in this process of designing a show, we have, we, we've talked to Ben Holman, who's the prop master of the festival. And let's just take a show like She Loves Me, set in a perfumery. So there's lots of boxes and bottles and tubes.
When you design that show, do you say this is what we need or do you show a picture of a shelf and they figure out what to put on it?
[Jo Winiarski]
Um, it's a little of both. If you look at my sketches from the design process, like there's stuff on the shelves, you know? And then, you know, Ben went and figured out how much stuff we needed, which was way more stuff than, oh my goodness, so many bottles.
And he actually designed all the labels that are on all the bottles. Um, and they're fun. There's little Easter eggs on those bottles.
Um, so, you know, my sketch was like, and then there's stuff on the shelves, you know, there's bottles and they should, you know, and I, I, you know, we, we together picked out style and things like that and color, but, but Ben does a lot of that sort of nitty gritty of fine, fine tuning.
[Ryan Paul]
But you would say we, the script doesn't call for a chair here, but I've, I've put a chair here because that would be you. Yeah, that would be me. And then would you also be the one to say, yeah, that chair needs to be chartreuse and not mauve?
[Jo Winiarski]
Yeah, that's me.
[Ryan Paul]
Do those colors? Yeah, I love chartreuse. Is that a matching, is mauve and chartreuse similar?
No. As evidenced by my outfit, you can't tell that I, you know, color is not my, well, I do like color, but anyway, let's, I'm interested in your process. So you've done a lot of shows, not just here, you've designed at Pioneer Theater, you've designed for Broadway and, and Off-Broadway.
[Jo Winiarski]
Off-Broadway, I've only been an associate on Broadway, no Broadway.
[Ryan Paul]
Love questions. Well, semantics. So, so you've designed lots of things and not just musical theater.
I mean, you've designed straight plays, obviously, and everything else. So you get the call to say, Joe, we'd like you to come back. We'll just use the festival as an example, because it's what we're here for.
We're doing these three shows, Something Rotten, She Loves Me, and See How They Run. And we want you to be the designer and you say, okay, what happens next?
[Jo Winiarski]
I read the scripts. That's what happens immediately next. And then how I work is when I do a first read, you know, I'll read while with my notebook next to me, and I often do little tiny bad drawings, you know, like thinking through the show, like, oh, the show needs this.
And at the same time, I'm doing a breakdown. Like, you know, the show, you must have a place for someone to, like, see how they run, you know, tracking the doors. It's a very, you know, that play is about doors, because it's a farce, you know, and the, you know, the physical needs of the show.
Things that, like, you know, every, hopefully every production is unique in its world. You know, that design, you know, that people, that when you, you know, people have this idea sometimes, I think that, like, oh, well, that show's been done before, but don't you just use that set? No, you know, you read the script and you have your own collaborative process and make your own production.
And so the first thing I do is read and break down the script and look for what are the textual needs of the show, not what the stage directions say, but, like, what has to be there for the show to happen? And then I talk to the director and say, like, you know, we have a conversation about style, period. You know, are we doing this show on Mars?
Are we setting it somewhere different? You know, like, what, what is, is there, is there a unique take to it? And, you know, for example, Michael Perman, early on, we were talking about She Loves Me.
He very much wanted the shop to be not, like, powder puffy. That's kind of like, I don't know how to say, that he wanted it to have richer woods. And, and then looking at the research, you know, I found, you know, looking at the time Budapest and the research, I found stuff that supported that sort of take on the show.
So there was an aesthetic decision that came from, from Mikey, you know, and then in talking to Alan, you know, he wanted, he just, because Something Rotten is sort of the perfect show for the festival, you know, he wanted something that, uh, nodded to the festival's history. And so that's how the whole, my, my homage to the rain stage, you know, so there's like those conversations, like reading, breaking it down, talking to the director, getting their sense of the show. Then I go off and do research, share the research.
We talk about the research, like what images have I pulled that speak to you? You know, like color, sometimes it's just color research. Sometimes it's art.
Sometimes it's actual architecture. And then from there, I usually draw.
[Ryan Paul]
Like you sit down with a pencil and paper and just draw pictures. And then, then they go to the director or to somebody to say, Hey, this is what we want.
[Jo Winiarski]
Yeah. Um, I usually, I sort of design, um, first in ground plan. So I'll figure out the ground plan and then how it sits on stage and how it moves on stage and back to those pesky sight lines on the outside.
You know, that, that dictates a lot of how a set is drawn, you know, is, is the theater itself. So I'll, I'll work in ground plan, figure out the ground plan. How does the show move?
How does the show flow? And then from ground plan, I'll go to elevations. And then the director and I will go back and forth for a while until we settle on, you know, Oh, this is how it works.
[Ryan Paul]
Because the director, I mean, when you think about grand plan, ground plan in the back of your mind, you're also thinking ground plan with two other shows and how they're going to fit. That's not the director's concern. That's not Alan's concern or anybody else's concern or Jeffrey's concern.
That's like, you know, you just do for, you know, they're not thinking that way for obvious reasons, but you are. Yeah. And, and I would imagine that presents a bit of a challenge sometimes.
Like, have you, have you had to say sometimes we can't really do that because it's not going to fit in the space we have with the other two sets. So in a show, like, well, I mean, not so much see how they run. Cause it's not as well known, but a show like something rotten or she loves me where I could go and watch versions of it, you know, professional versions of it.
Does that ever, is that, is that a problem? Like, do you go say, Oh, I'm going to go watch the great performances. She loves me just to kind of see what they did.
Or do you just.
[Jo Winiarski]
I never do that. I don't want that show in my head, you know? And it's funny cause I was talking to someone about this recently that I think shows that have a visual legacy are often the hardest to design.
Like you're not doing Hello Dolly without a big staircase. You're just, you're just not like, that's the show, you know? So how, what, how do you bring your own unique take and how do you bring your own visual world?
I recently just had come from away at Pioneer and I had seen Beowulf set and also having worked for Beowulf for so many years. I'm very aware of his visual vocabulary. And in designing that show, I spent a lot of time being like, it's not this, you know, thinking, cause I knew what his set looked like, you know?
And how do, and we had, Karen and I had a very different, not, it's not to say, we had a different visual take, which were, you know, I think was, was interesting, but.
[Ryan Paul]
You did it without chairs?
[Jo Winiarski]
There were no chairs. There were these cool rolling bench units that lit up and created the gander sign from the airport. But so no, I don't look at other shows.
Sometimes when I'm done and I'm curious, you know, to be like, oh, what did they do? How did they solve this? You know, I'll look to see, but I don't want other people's sets in my head, you know?
Cause then I wonder sometimes like if subconsciously you think, oh, I've got this great idea and you've drawn what somebody else has already done. Cause you know, somehow, you know, so.
[Ryan Paul]
So it's interesting. So you, you, what about from your own world? Like, have you ever subconsciously brought something from somewhere else past and put it together?
[Jo Winiarski]
This is brand new.
[Ryan Paul]
And then I was like, oh, I did this 10 years ago.
[Jo Winiarski]
Well, I feel like, you know, if you look at my work as a whole, there's definitely, as a whole, there's definitely like, you, I think you can tell it's mine, you know? And sure. Like, you know, I'm not, I don't reinvent, like I've drawn a million rolling doors.
Like I know a rolling door is going to work best if it's done like this. So I'll be like, where's that drawing of that rolling door? And then I'll take that drawing and change it, you know, or whatever.
But, you know, some things you've just learned from years of doing it, you know?
[Ryan Paul]
So from the beginning, when they say, we want you to do these three plays, do they give you the budget number right that moment? So then who takes your pictures and does the stuff, stuff, because I don't know what the word at math or whatever, to break it down into component pieces and then attach dollars to that?
[Jo Winiarski]
The technical director.
[Ryan Paul]
And then they, that, and then they would come back and say, well, listen, I mean, you know, this drawing is this much money.
[Jo Winiarski]
Yeah, that's nice.
[Ryan Paul]
But it's not going to work. And that's happened to you before. Oh, sure.
[Jo Winiarski]
Yeah. Thankfully, less so this many years in, you know, I kind of know what, you know, not that I don't wildly hit the mark sometimes. And also, I'm not always up to date on how much a sheet of, you know, plywood costs, because, you know, cost.
But I have a gut instinct of what, also, I mean, at the festival, I've designed so many shows here. I have a gut feeling for, like, what is possible, you know, scope and scale.
[Ryan Paul]
So when you, and I've been to many dress rehearsals with you there, and obviously, I just sit and watch. But there are times when there are holds and we stop and because things there, when you are there, what are you really looking for?
[Jo Winiarski]
Um, when I'm at a dress rehearsal? Yes. Uh, I'm doing a first, like, overview look, looking for notes, looking for things that aren't finished or don't look right or need attention.
And then, so there's, like, the overall aesthetic, you know, eye. And then for something like She Loves Me, I'm watching the transitions and watching how the scenery moves and having conversations about, like, oh, maybe we should tighten that up or have the one counter move sooner so that it ends musically here. You know, it's a conversation with the director and the choreographer to make the scenery, the scenery is having its own dress rehearsal, right?
You know, like, those things move in collaboration with the music so that the whole thing has a cohesive feel.
[Ryan Paul]
So who gives the notes then? Like, when you, so the dress rehearsal ends and at some point that night or the next day, I assume you get together and say, okay, here are the notes. Who gives, do you get notes or do you give notes?
[Jo Winiarski]
Uh, both. Um, I give notes and I get notes, you know. I get notes from director and choreographer and I give notes to scenic props and paint.
[Ryan Paul]
So let me give you an example. So last night there's a transition beautifully done multiple times about seasons. So we see the seasons and there's a scene where Christmas decorations, like, they're supposed to put up Christmas decorations and, and the set comes out and they get the boxes and they're doing stuff.
And, and the director says, hold. And because this garland doesn't go where, you know, there's another scene there. The garlands themselves, you designed what the Christmas set looked like, but the actual getting the garlands on is a decision by the director.
[Jo Winiarski]
Yes. We decided pre together. We decided what garlands go where and how much the set's going to be dressed when we first see it versus when we see it later.
Like those decisions are made with myself and the director, but like who puts it on when they put it on. That's a director choreographer decision. That's not mine.
[Ryan Paul]
So how much in, in your experience here at the festival, how much divine intervention occurs? Like, I mean, there's gotta be times I would think when you are sitting in a first or second dress cause they only get two dresses and you may think, I don't know how this is going to work. You know, like, like there may be components where the, the, the acting may be solid, but somehow there's a set issue or the set issue is great, but there's a prop that keeps doing something funky or vice versa.
And then all of a sudden it just clicks when the final part comes in with the audience and previews or, or do you think generally by second dress, things are pretty solid?
[Jo Winiarski]
I mean, you hope by second dress, things are pretty solid. Um, you know, the audience, I mean, what's that great quote that, uh, is it Eric Bentley who says that like, you know, theater is, uh, I'm now I'm butchering it. Please cut this out of the podcast.
You know, person a watches person B and that's theater. You know, like theater only exists with an audience. It's one person performing and another person watching.
And so, you know, until you get an audience, the show isn't done, you know, and you do learn in previews like, Oh, that didn't land or, Oh, that joke, you know, whatever, or, Oh, this felt epically long. Cause sometimes, you know, when you're looking at something and you'd see it differently when someone else is looking at it with you, like all of a sudden something you thought was great and then there's someone sitting next to you and you're like, Oh, this may not be as cool as I thought it was. You know, um, that I think, you know, having an audience and how they, they respond and the sort of feeling you can get from an audience teaches you a lot about timing of transitions.
Like, Oh, we're in the dark too long or, Oh, this set needs to move faster. Cause it felt fine in rehearsal now feels deadly, you know, or whatever, you know, um, or, Hey, that thing actually really worked. And it is really funny.
[Ryan Paul]
You just described my life. It's not as cool as I, I'm not as cool as I think. So thank you for once again, humbling me.
So let's go to our next, uh, song, our next break. And this is a song that, uh, I think it's very interesting, uh, dust and ashes. And this is from Natasha Pierre and the great comment of 1812.
So why did you choose this song?
[Jo Winiarski]
I think it's possibly one of my most favorite songs from any musical. It's beautiful. Um, Pierre sings it and he's, um, ruminating on his life and what it means to fall in love.
And like how, you know, if, if this is how my life ends and I never have that moment of love, you know, what, what does that mean? Um, it's just a beautiful song and, you know, to come on a podcast and talk about a career in the arts and career in theater, you have to include a musical theater song.
[Ryan Paul]
Very cool. So this is dust and ashes from Natasha Pierre and the great comment of 1812. Is this how I die?
Ridiculed and laughed at wearing clown shoes. Is this how I die? Furious and reckless, sick with booze.
I taste every wasted minute, every time I'm tuned away from the things that might have healed me. How long have I been sleeping? Is this how I die?
Frightened like a child, lazy and numb. Is this how I die? Pretending and preposterous and dumb.
[Lauren Bird]
How did I live? Was I kind enough and good enough? Did I lie?
[Ryan Paul]
Did I ever look up and see the moon? And the stars in the sky? Oh, why have I been sleeping?
[Lauren Bird]
They say we are asleep until we fall in love.
[Reese Whitaker]
We are children of dust and ashes. But when we fall in love, we wake up. We are a god and angels, we.
But if I die here tonight, I die asleep.
[Ryan Paul]
All of my life I spent searching the words of poets and saints and prophets and kings. And now at the end, all I know that I've learned is that all that I know is I don't know a thing. So easy to close off, place the blame outside.
Hiding in my room at night, so terrified. All the things I could have been, but I never had the nerve. Life and love I don't deserve.
So all right, all right, I've had my time. Close my eyes, let the bells chime. Marry me in burgundy, I just don't care.
[Lauren Bird]
Nothing's left, I've loved every year. Is this how I die? Was there really a way my life could be?
Is this how I die? Such a storm of feelings inside of me. But then why am I screaming?
Why am I shaking?
[Ryan Paul]
Oh God, was there something that I missed? Did I squander my divinity? Was happiness within me the whole time?
[Lauren Bird]
They say we are asleep until we fall in love.
[Ryan Paul]
We are children of dust and ashes. But when we fall in love we wake up and we are as we. But if I die here tonight, I die in my sleep.
They say we are asleep until we fall in love. And I'm so ready to wake up now.
[Reese Whitaker]
I won't wake up, don't let me die while I'm like this. I won't wake up, God, don't let me die while I'm like this. Please let me wake up now.
I'm ready. I'm ready.
[Lauren Bird]
That was Dust and Ashes from Natasha Pierre and the Great Comet of 1812. You're listening to the Apex Radio Hour Utah Shakespeare Festival Edition. I'll turn it back to you, Ryan.
[Ryan Paul]
Thank you, Lauren. We're here with the festival's longtime scenic director, Joe Warnarski, who designed the sets for many of our shows in the Randall over the years. And I want to talk about creativity.
What you do to me, we talked about magic. I know that's kind of a flippant thing, but magic for some is science for the other person. And for me, over the years, watching how everything works that you have done, not the acting, which is great, but the beautiful quilting together of these physical objects to assist and sometimes tell a story really has been a moving thing for me and it's evolved over the time.
So I want to talk about not how you do it, but what you think about creativity in general. But before we do that, let's just very quickly talk about the skills. So if one wants to be, and you mentioned this a little earlier, a scenic designer, besides turning your work in time, meeting people and not being a jerk, what are the specific skills that one needs to have?
[Jo Winiarski]
You need to know how to draft. That's one of the basic hard skills you need to have. I would also say you probably need to know how to draw.
I suppose if you can draft, now in 2026, you can create a rendering without drawing if you can draft it in 3D and then render it. But I think you do need to be able to draw. I spend a lot of time drawing on napkins sitting next to technical directors figuring something out.
Just a pen and a piece of paper. When we're trying to defy gravity, doing something ridiculous. So those are two skills.
I also think you need to have a collaborative spirit in your art making. Scenic design is not, to me, and everyone has a different point of view, but to me, scenic design is about supporting the world of the play. It's a support element.
It's reading someone else's work and riffing off of that to create a container to hold a story.
[Ryan Paul]
By the way, Lauren, did you hear that the Winarski way is a pen, not a pencil? She doesn't need erasers. She knows how it's going to work.
I'm solving the crossword puzzle with a pen. Oh, I do not use a pen to do crossword puzzles, especially the Sunday Times one. So it's interesting to me that you start out as an actor and shift, somebody sees something in you, you develop a love of the arts in a variety of ways, and all of this really centers about creativity.
Would you define yourself as a creative person?
[Lauren Bird]
Yes.
[Ryan Paul]
How would you define creativity?
[Jo Winiarski]
I think creativity is the desire to make stuff. If I never designed another set, I would still make stuff. When I have the space, I don't make a lot of my own art, but one of the blessings of the pandemic was I drew nonstop, and I spent a lot of time making my own art, stuff just for me.
I'm driven to make things. I'm always drawing. I'm always doodling.
It's just my brain wants to make things.
[Ryan Paul]
Do you think creativity comes for you specifically? Is it internal or is it external?
[Jo Winiarski]
I think it's both. Maybe the creativity is internal and the inspiration is external. I see things and it sparks a thought and makes me want to make something about that.
I think maybe the desire to create is from inside, but for me the things that inspire or motivate me are probably external.
[Ryan Paul]
In your mind, what is your most important creative tool?
[Jo Winiarski]
A pen and a piece of paper?
[Ryan Paul]
Do you use yellow notepads or do you use any paper?
[Jo Winiarski]
I have lots of blank white notebooks. I do love a good Moleskine. There's my product placement.
I'm not sponsored. I love a good black ink pen. You have a lot of those around.
[Ryan Paul]
You always have a pen to come by. When you decide to retire, you give your notebook the Wienarski papers.
[Jo Winiarski]
I don't think anyone would want my mountains of chicken scratch.
[Ryan Paul]
I think you'd be surprised at what people would want. How do you know when something is done? When you have to go home.
That's a brilliant answer, by the way.
[Jo Winiarski]
It is. As a set designer, I'll give notes until I leave. Until opening.
Would I still have more notes? Sure. I would, but then it's done.
You have to go home. Put your stuff away. Go home.
[Ryan Paul]
Even if you're creating something, I guess when you have to go home, when someone tells you it's time to come inside and have dinner.
[Jo Winiarski]
When those streetlights come on, that's when it's done.
[Ryan Paul]
When you are designing something for a theater set, whether it's here or anywhere else, what percentage, if you could break it down, is what the audience you think will want to see, what's functional for the actors, what's functional for the space, or just what you want?
[Jo Winiarski]
I think what's most important is that the set is functional. That's number one. The set has to work for the play.
See how they run the perfect example of that. That set is very specific for that show to work. I think functionality is probably the biggest percentage.
That might be a disappointing answer, but I think that if it doesn't work for the play, you've ruined the play.
[Ryan Paul]
I think functionality would also mean safety. It needs to be safe.
[Jo Winiarski]
It has to be safe. It has to work. It has to serve the story.
Those things all come first.
[Ryan Paul]
I have two final questions before we move to our next break. The first is is there a play, musical, whatever, that you would have not done that you would want to do?
[Jo Winiarski]
Yes. Michael Perlman and I were just talking about this. I want to do Gypsy so badly.
It's a huge scenic show. It doesn't get done very often because it's just massive. I think it's one of those perfect shows.
I'd love to do Gypsy.
[Ryan Paul]
You don't need a giant staircase for Gypsy. Some balloons and a suitcase. You need a million.
[Jo Winiarski]
It's the travel story. You keep traveling location to location.
[Ryan Paul]
Secondly, if you don't mind sharing, what's next? I think people should understand that you're here. You get here.
You have design meetings. You start the year before in the summer and fall. Then you come back and work things out.
Then the big hit is in May when everyone's here and you're watching it all come together. Once we open, you go home or you go on to the next thing. What's next for you?
[Jo Winiarski]
I'm currently working on a couple different things. I'm going to design John Proctor as the villain at Pioneer, which I'm excited about. I'm working on a production of Dracula at Theodorex.
Just a bunch of products.
[Ryan Paul]
Your legacy and time at the Shakespeare Festival is cemented and we'll see you again, I'm sure. I want to take our next break before we get back to our final segment. You and I had talked about this because I cannot not have this here.
Only because I don't think in the years that we've done this, this band has never been selected. Lauren has created a huge Spotify playlist of 30, 50, 70 guests and all the music, including the ones that don't make the cut. That's not fair.
That didn't get chosen because you gave us a song that we're not going to play. This one has to be on that list. This song is Sick of You by Gwar.
Tell me why you chose this song.
[Jo Winiarski]
Once again, going back to theatricality and rock music, is there any better example than Gwar? When I was 17 in New Jersey, Gwar would often play at City Gardens, which is a venue in Trenton, New Jersey. If you don't know about Gwar, they do these spectacular live shows.
They're all in costume and they spray blood all over the audience. It is the most theatrical experience you can think of. I love Gwar.
I will say, if you haven't heard their cover of Pink Pony Club, you really should check it out. Gwar does a great cover.
[Ryan Paul]
We're going to go to this song in a second, but it led me to one more question very quickly. Have you ever designed for a band, like a concert type thing?
[Lauren Bird]
I wish I had, but I haven't.
[Ryan Paul]
But you could. That's within your skill set. That's within, yeah.
Lauren, have your uncle, who's the production manager for Gwar, talk to Joe and see if he can make that happen.
[Jo Winiarski]
Oh man, that would be a dream come true.
[Ryan Paul]
This is Sick of You by Gwar.
[Reese Whitaker]
I'm so sick of you So sick of you
[Lauren Bird]
Thank you So sick of you, the things you say
[Ryan Paul]
The things you do, the things you know So sick of you, the things you say The things you do, the things you know I am so sick of you, the things you say And all the things you do, don't you know I am so sick of you, the things you say And all the things you do
[Reese Whitaker]
Don't you know that I'm sick of you
[Ryan Paul]
The other things you say and the things you do Don't you know I'm so sick of you The other things you say and the things you do Sick of you I'm so sick of you
[Lauren Bird]
Sick of you Sick! That was Sick of You by Gwar.
You're listening to the Apex Radio Hour Utah Shakespeare Festival Edition. I'll turn it back to you, Ryan.
[Ryan Paul]
Holy moly! Wow, I mean, you know, it's a good thing that I am a bald man because if I wasn't, my hair would be gone by now. That's why it went away, by the way, from all my headbanging.
It just disappeared one day at a Quiet Riot concert. So, for those of you who've listened to our podcast before, know that we ask about what's bringing us joy this week and we're gonna start with that. So, Jo Winarski, what are you currently watching, reading, listening to, or playing that is bringing you joy?
[Jo Winiarski]
I'm currently reading James by Percival Everett.
[Ryan Paul]
I love that book.
[Jo Winiarski]
It's fantastic. It's just so beautifully written. It's so good.
[Ryan Paul]
And for those who don't know, James, do you want to tell them the premise?
[Jo Winiarski]
It's the Huckleberry Finn story told from Jim's point of view.
[Ryan Paul]
Have you read that, Lauren?
[Lauren Bird]
I have not. I think I've seen the cover various times, though.
[Ryan Paul]
It's a brilliant, brilliant book. It's brilliant. We're both on!
I was gonna say, I bought my copy of James in London. Oh, cool! So, Lauren Bird, what are you currently watching, reading, listening to, or playing that is bringing you joy?
[Lauren Bird]
So last night, for the first time since probably elementary school, I rewatched the movie Ella Enchanted, and it's very much not faithful to the book, and very early 2000s cheese, but I kind of love it. It was just delightful, and I forgot there were musical numbers, so it was just really fun all around.
[Ryan Paul]
Which is not unique, because this season's Troilus and Cressida is very unlike the play. I mean, it's an interesting, beautiful cut, thankfully, but I haven't read the book. It's a good one.
I enjoyed it. Was that Anne Hathaway in that movie? Yes.
[Lauren Bird]
What about you, Ryan? What are you currently watching, reading, listening to, or playing that's bringing you joy?
[Ryan Paul]
I am playing a game. Lauren knows this, and you know Stuart Shelley, our education director. We've been friends for a long time.
Once a month, my son and his family... My son and myself and Stuart's family get together for a game night. They're big gamers.
So we play lots of... Over the five years we've done this, lots of board games. We discovered one that I have loved, and it's called Hot Streak.
What it is, is it's like in a box, and you pull out the... It's like a football field type map, and essentially there are these four off-brand mascots that are just funky-looking big plastic figures, and then you race them. So there's cards that are set up, and the cards are different things, and you bet on who's going to win, and it's just a crazy fun game.
So Hot Streak is the one you want to look out for. That's what I'm playing. So, Joe Winarski, thank you for being here, for taking the time to talk about your story.
And I encourage all of you to... And I mentioned this in my orientations, that you owe yourself something. That there's a reason why we open the house early, and we like to think that it's to get people seated, and so we can start the show on time.
But I also believe that it's to sit and experience the set and the space before the humans mess it up, or begin the process. And I encourage people to go into the Randall Theater and to spend a reflective moment in that space. It's like going to church, right?
You spend that moment before you become something different. And I think that your designs have allowed me to say that with confidence.
[Jo Winiarski]
Oh, thank you.
[Ryan Paul]
So, Joe Winarski has designed the three shows running in the Randall this season, Something Rotten, She Loves Me, and See How They Run. Please enjoy those. They run in rep with our three shows in the Engelstad, Twelfth Night, Twirless and Cressida, and a lesser-known play from William Shakespeare, Hamlet.
And then soon, in a few weeks, the two Aines shows will open, the book club play, and Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. And I would encourage you, if you get a chance, to see plays in all three spaces because they create unique experiences, I would imagine, challenges, and very different theatrical experiences. So, if you want to know more about that, go to the website, bard.org.
If you want to listen to more of our Apex Radio Hour podcast, you can look up Apex Radio Hour wherever you get your podcasts, one of our most recent ones, with Ben Holman, who's the prop master who has worked with Joe many times. So, we're going to go out with a very un-Guar-ish song, or maybe this guy's the Guar of the opera world. I don't know.
So, we're going to listen to Nessun Dorma from the opera Turandot by Puccini. And the version we're going to hear is from Pavarotti. Will you tell us why you chose this?
[Jo Winiarski]
Well, at first, it's beautiful. And it's one of those songs that I feel like you hear and you just feel it in your soul. But also, going back to thinking about the Summer Arts Institute, which I think is, you know, the start of my sort of creative journey.
Years after I had been there as a student, I had the ability. I taught there as part of In Arts, and we created a piece using that piece of music. So, it has a very, an art-making place in my heart as well.
[Ryan Paul]
Very cool. So, Jill Warnoski, thank you for being here. Lauren, thank you for being here.
And, of course, in the words of the great American poet Bill Withers, I wish you well, and this is Nessun Dorma from the opera Turandot by Puccini featuring Pavarotti.
[Reese Whitaker]
O scioglierò il silenzio e vincerò, vincerò, vincerò!