Join host Ryan Paul as he sits down with Utah Shakespeare Festival actor Walter Kmiec for an authentic, insightful conversation on stepping into two iconic roles: Hamlet and Achilles. Kmiec shares his journey from childhood comic book drawings and job-site carpentry to discovering the transformative power of live classical theater. Discover how trusting the process, grounding famous soliloquies in real-time discovery, and finding shared humanity elevate performance on stage.
You are listening to the Apex Hour hosted by Ryan Paul on KSUU Thunder 91.1. This show allows more personal time with our guests, allowing them to give us their stories and opinions. We will also give you new music to listen to, hoping you enjoy some new sounds and genres. Welcome to this episode of the Apex Hour.
Welcome to the Apex Radio Hour, Utah Shakespeare Festival edition. I'm producer Lauren Bird and I'm here today with Director of Apex and Professor of History Ryan Paul and our special guest, Walter Kmiec. I'll turn it over to you, Ryan.
Thank you, Lauren. We are so excited to have Walter Kmiec here. He's someone that I've wanted to chat with for a while.
And I had mentioned to him earlier that it's rare in the line of work that I do, that I hear people talk about someone and never say anything bad. I mean, even to me, right? I mean, I'm a collector of information and stories, but even like the, you know, let's keep this between us type of conversations. So yeah, so I'm excited.
Thank you. So I guess what I'm saying is that if we can just talk about all of your sins and transgressions. Let's get my wife in here.
So we're here with Walter Kmiec. He's an actor this season at the Shakespeare Festival. He plays Hamlet in a lesser known Shakespeare play called Hamlet.
He's also Achilles in Troilus and Cressida, but he's been here before. If you've been to the festival in the last few years, you've seen him in a variety of roles. He was Mackers or Macbeth as we're not in a theater last year, among other things, Touchstone.
So we'll talk about that, but thank you for being here. And thank you for taking the time. Thank you very much for having me.
So let's start with a question that I always like to ask everybody is kind of a how we get to now question. So can you tell us a little bit about where you grew up and how you kind of got to do what you do? Yeah, I was born in Hartford, Connecticut, and I spent I half of my formative years there. So we moved to Florida when I was about eight years old.
And I've pretty much since then have lived in Florida, save a few periods. And I didn't grow up in theater. My family was not and was not an arts family that we loved music.
But even then, you know, my mother and father were club dancers. And so I listened to a lot of dance music and house music, I guess, in the 80s. And they loved movies and TV.
But it wasn't, I guess, what what you would call high culture. So I, I loved to draw. So there were arts in the family, but nothing, nothing on a level of like what I see some kids get to do, you know, with these Shakespeare camps and things like that.
They're very, very lucky. So were your parents club dancers by profession? No, no, they just love advocating. Yeah, they just love dancing and they loved the nightlife.
They loved to boogie. And so I sort of I grew up with all with a nice range, I think, of pop music. But they didn't really venture too much into any other kind of any other kind of music.
But they my dad loves to draw. He has somewhat of an artistic sensibility. And, and my mom, the same to just a certain, I would imagine, like, a sensitivity that could lend itself well to the arts.
And so I think that I gravitated towards the arts quite naturally. And then when I was in sixth grade, there was a girl who was, I guess, my girlfriend, either that or I really liked her. And they we were signing up for electives the next year.
And she was going to go into chorus. And I said, Okay, well, I'll go into chorus. And it was a lot of performing.
It was a lot of Broadway melodies and also old radio hits. And I don't know, I could just do it. That's the only thing I can.
I didn't have like a light bulb that went off or anything like I don't I didn't have this epiphany. But it was just something I was told to sort of stand here, move here, dance this way. We had a skit where we played clowns at the end we to the tune of be a clown to the song be a clown.
And we came up with this whole routine. And I just never really thought twice about it. I could just do it.
And then and that was just sort of what I was going to do. At that point, I wanted to be a comic book artist or cartoonist. And then that year, also, I think that was 95.
So that year, Jim Carrey had burst onto the scene from In Living Color, but he had had three like massive movie hits that year. It was Dumb and Dumber, Ace Ventura, and The Mask. And then Batman Forever played the Riddler.
And I mean, I was like, I was like 11 years old, you know, and so that was to me. I want to be like Jim Carrey. And so that's what I was going to do.
And I pretty much never, never really seriously considered doing anything else after that. So you, I mean, you were a singer, right? You say, I mean, but you never thought I want to be in like Broadway musical theater. No, that was never.
No, I never gravitated towards that. I was never one of the theater kids that would get the cast recording and learn, you know, and sing in the halls with the other kids. I loved music.
And I do love, I'm not, I'm not as familiar with Broadway musicals, but, you know, the ones that I've seen, I've, I've quite enjoyed. And there have been, there have been pieces of music from musicals that, that I love that I listened to a lot. And, but it was never something that I, I never thought about being in musicals.
I guess I always just liked, for lack of a better term, straight plays or comedies or like sitcom stuff. I mean, I, I, that was the stuff I gravitated towards when I was a kid or that I wanted to kind of do when I was a kid. So when you saw, when you had this kind of Jim Carrey experience, the, was it a, it was a thought, well, I want to be a comedic actor on film or, I mean, or do you just want to be an actor? I don't know.
I'm, it's such a, that period is such a blur because I remember, like I said, I don't remember there being this, this epiphany, you know, it was just that I, I suddenly became very interested in comedy and jokes. And so I went to the library and I remember I got like a bunch of books about comedy and writing jokes and performing. And yeah, so I, I started, I started there, but it wasn't like I had thought, like, I'm going to be a comedic, you know, I'm going to be a comedic actor or I'm going to be a standup comedian or anything like that.
I think I just gravitated towards something that I felt like I didn't know enough about and wanted to know more about. And that's sort of been generally my journey. That's something will come up.
And Shakespeare is part of that. I guess I, I, my, the first job I booked out of college was a Shakespeare and it's not something, I mean, I hadn't read a lot of Shakespeare and I had never thought about being a Shakespeare actor, but it just ended up being the thing I got hired to do the most. And so as that began to happen, I wanted to know how to do it better.
And then I would read about, you know, I'd read more about Shakespeare. I'd read more of the plays. I'd learn more about the text and, and now, and now I love it.
Right. But, but it came out of just it being the thing that was there in front of me and, and then my wanting to become more familiar with it and, and get better at it, I guess. So did you, when you went to college, was it by design to be an actor? Yes.
Yeah. I mean, that's, yeah, from middle school on, I mean, then I went to high school and then I was going to try to be in the shows and I was, I was, you know, I was fortunate enough to, to get cast. Right.
I mean, it doesn't, I recognize that it's not a given that you just get cast. And so there was certainly a lot for me to learn, but despite the things that I didn't know, I was, I was fortunate enough to get in those shows and get a lot of experience performing experience in high school. And then, yeah, when I went to college, that was my major.
And and then I was, you know, I guess in the way most of us at that age, no, absolutely nothing, you know, I was just going to go to New York and I was going to, I was just going to go and audition and get hired maybe. Um, but yeah, I wish, I wish I could say it was some, uh, it was some kind of grand vision like in the woods or something, you know, but it wasn't, it just one thing, one thing kind of led to another. And I never, um, I had never really thought about doing anything else.
You made all the right turns without knowing you were making the right turns. Yes. And then it wasn't until later, I think when I was like, um, uh, when I was older, uh, and I, I, you know, I was married, I'd had a kid and I suddenly was like, why am I doing this? Not, not in the sense that, uh, I was miserable, but I think more suddenly, suddenly realizing that I had never really thought about it, right.
That it was, it just came sort of natural to me. And then I was faced with this idea of, because, you know, I think getting married and having a kid, uh, those are, those are things that come into your life that take precedence over other things that had taken precedence in your life. And so, you know, if I, I would imagine that for a lot of us from an early age or how, whenever we got started theater was the most important thing in our lives.
Um, and certainly it asks that of you or, you know, requires that of you, if you want to work consistently in it. And so I think maybe that's when I started to really ask, I was like, why do I need to do this? Why do I feel like I need to spend time away from my family to do, to do this crazy thing? Right. Um, but that was probably the first time I really asked that question.
So do you, did you, have you followed in your parents' love of club dancing? I do like to dance. I can cut a rug at a wedding. Um, but they would do, I mean, I guess I, I don't, this is not really a thing anymore, but in the seventies, uh, this was a thing.
I mean, you would enter dance, I guess, a la Saturday night fever. I mean, you would enter dance competitions at, at your local disco or whatever. And then you, you could, you would get, you know, first place, second place, third place or whatnot.
And my, my parents were, uh, were very, they were that they, they just love to dance. And so they would enter these competitions and then we would dance at home. Um, but they didn't teach me formal steps or anything.
We would just, uh, feel the groove, feel the groove. And, you know, I, I came up in, in the MTV era. Um, and so I got to watch people dance.
Um, you know, I watched Michael Jackson or Janet Jackson. Um, that's an interesting thought about watching the, you know, I don't, I'm probably a little older than you, but this idea of being a TV kid, I mean, you actually see it. Oh, it's not just hearing it.
Yeah. And I, I, by the time I had really, it was really watching television, those, those dance shows like, um, soul train and, um, I can't remember some of the other ones, but, uh, they had sort of gone out of fashion probably because, you know, it's not as exciting to watch as a music video. Uh, and yeah, so I was there.
I was, I mean, you know, I was watching like Michael Jackson, uh, moonwalk or like stand on his stand on his toes. Like I had no idea he was, he was aping Bob Fosse or Fred Astaire or anything like that. Right.
So I'm just, I'm just watching Michael Jackson. Uh, yeah, but you can watch those things and you can watch them. If you record them on your tape, you can watch them over and over.
So I guess, you know, how in the, in the olden days, like you could hire mourners for your funeral, like professional mourners. So if this acting thing doesn't work out or it turned South in some way, you could be a wedding dancer. Oh, sure.
They bring you in as like, salt the box. Come in. I can look at that guy.
I can bring life to the party. I think, uh, I, you know, I, I, my, my parents, there was always music on my dad is one of those guys too. He, um, the car, uh, the music is on and the radio at full volume and he knows all the words and he's windowed down yelling, you know? Uh, and so I just got to learn a lot of songs.
So at a wedding, I just know all the songs, you know? And so I'm in the center of the dance floor really for myself, just enjoying the music myself. So what did your parents do for a living? My father, uh, worked in construction and was a, uh, is a carpenter. Uh, now he's a, uh, a superintendent for a construction company, but it was a very, um, very, very good carpenter.
Um, and so all my life I was essentially, you know, dragged around to job sites and, um, uh, working on, I mean, you know, and he's pretty gifted, so he can, he can do a range of things. And so, um, when I got old enough, I would start working with him. And so, you know, tiling and, uh, a little bit of electrical, a little bit of plumbing, but mostly framing, sheet rock, um, roof windows, uh, doors, things like that, painting.
Um, and then my mother was, uh, a secretary, uh, for a utility company up north and her work was always much more steady. My father, you know, um, was always chasing jobs because I guess maybe that's where I got that actually. Um, because that's sort of what you're doing when you're a freelance carpenter, always chasing jobs.
Um, but my mom had, had a steady job and, uh, and she did that, you know, for a long time, my parents were eventually divorced. And so I think about her a lot actually, because she, you know, I can't imagine, um, sort of being a single mom, three kids and just, you know, going nine to, you know, just getting kids ready in the morning, working, you know, from nine to five plus, plus travel and then, and then meals and then dealing with three creative kids, you know, we can imagine what that was like. Um, but she, she ended up when I was in high school, she ended up going back to school, um, and eventually got her master's and she stayed with the same company.
They, they made, uh, the company that she worked for when she moved to Florida essentially built the support walls that keep bridges up for like for overpasses and whatnot. Um, and she ended up moving up in the company because she went back to school and got her master's and she became a project manager. And, you know, so I was just sort of watched, uh, her kind of, you know, have this, I think she had kids early and I think she had felt like she wanted a better life for herself and, uh, and for us.
And so, um, she really chased education and, um, uh, but, you know, again, she, she loved movies and she loved music as well. And she could draw. I remember that she would, uh, she could copy my Ninja Turtles cartoons, really.
I had a Nintendo Ninja Turtle game and I really loved the graphic on it. And, uh, and she could copy that really well, but it wasn't, uh, she didn't really make much of a thing of it. Whereas my dad would draw all the time, you know, and he would keep them and he'd have a portfolio and my mom could do it, but she'd never really pursued it or even drew attention to it.
You know, I was always sort of struck by that as well. The fact that she could do this thing and just never didn't seem to have any feelings about it, you know? So with, with, with the work that you did with your dad, have you, has there ever been a time when you've been on stage and you know, something kind of went wonky and you said, you know, I could really, I could fix that. Give me, give me a spackle knife and a flux capacitor and we can make it work.
No, no, nothing like that has ever come up, but I have, uh, volunteered in shops from time to time, um, and been able to kind of, um, make my way around a shop, you know, make my, my way around a band saw. So what's the first thing you ever remember as a kid wanting to do for a living? Um, draw comic books. Um, yeah.
Are you still a reader of the comic book? Not really. Although I, I dabble in, I love, I still love reading books about drawing, about perfecting technique. Um, uh, specifically comic book drawing.
I was actually just yesterday. I had a, um, a book that was a collection of tutorials from this comic book magazine. When I was a kid, there was only one, uh, and they collected the tutorials and they put them in this book.
And I was, I, I found it in this used bookstore like a couple months ago. And I was like, Oh my gosh, I remember these. And I, I, and I got it and I was reading it yesterday.
And I was like, I'm not even, I'm not going to do anything that it says in this book, but I think there's something, uh, uh, I don't know, maybe it's a way to connect to my childhood or it's a piece of me. That's never really left. Um, but I, again, my dad could draw.
And so I would, I remember my, my earliest memory of him drawing is we were watching Star Trek four, which is the whale one and the voyage home. And he was drawing Spock. He was drawing this, um, pretty good, uh, pretty good drawing of Spock.
And I was, I cut out the enterprise. I drew the enterprise on a, uh, on like a piece of paper or something and then tried to cut it out so that I could play with it as a toy. But of course it was like this paper that wouldn't do anything I wanted it to do.
Um, but that was sort of the earliest memory I had of, um, I guess of being artistic. And I think my dad loved comic books as a kid. Um, and he, of course he was around for like the golden era.
You know, he was, when he was a kid, they were all coming out, you know? So it's like he had, at one point he had the first issues of these, you know, fantastic four and, uh, Thor and all of that. Um, and so I think for him it was, uh, when I was about seven or eight, he took me to, uh, a store and I got like three, uh, I got three comics, got a Spider-Man comic, a Captain America comic and a flash. Um, and I was pretty much drawing, uh, right away from what I remember.
I was drawing, I was trying to copy those pages. So, which is interesting in the sense of, of what you do. I mean, I, I, I've been a huge comic book fan for a long time.
But I have no artistic skill. Like it wasn't the art that was, it was the story and those kinds of things that I was always drawn to the team books. I like the idea of, of the super friends and the Justice League and the fantasy.
The team made a difference to me, but it's interesting to me that you spent this time copying the images and now you spend your time bringing words on a page to life. Does that make sense? Like it's like you're, you're, you're still doing that same thing just in a different way. Yes.
I, and I guess I suppose in that vein, both as a, um, both as a player of characters and a speaker of text, I am trying to observe for lack of a better word, the rules, right. I'm, uh, trying to observe all of our, all of the ways that we behave in the decisions that we make, uh, and trying to get a grasp on why we do the things we do or why we might to do the things we do while at the same time, uh, trying to analyze language and the way that language works, um, both, you know, both kind of on the surface, um, in terms of the English language, but also thinking about like how we use language and, uh, the ways that language comes out of us. Right.
And then essentially applying, applying those things, right. Trying to find those things in the character or in the text, uh, and then, uh, and then, and then using them, I guess, to tell, to help tell the story. So when you said to your parents that I want to be an actor, were they like, great, let's do it.
Or were they like, no, they were very supportive. There was no, there wasn't even, that's what I mean, right. There wasn't even a discussion.
There wasn't even like, Hey guys, so I've decided what I'm going to do. Uh, I think it was that they all thought I was going to be an artist, uh, because that's just all I would do. You know, I would just be, everybody would be watching the movies and I would be in the living room on the floor with all my sketch pad stuff, watching the movie, but also just drawing whatever I was drawing.
And, um, and so then when I started to do theater, I think everyone just shifted to being like, oh, that's, yeah, that's what he's, uh, that's what he likes to do. That's probably what he's going to do. And there was never really a, like, so what are you going to do? My dad, I, I, you know, he talks a lot about, he had done some modeling, uh, before I was born and I think there was a part of him that wanted to do something like this or, you know, be in the lights, I suppose.
And so he was generally supportive, um, of us in our creative pursuits. My sister was a singer and, uh, had had a band and was writing music and, um, and there was never a sense of like, you know, you really shouldn't do this or you should think about doing something else, or you should, you should think about a backup. Um, it was more like, if you're going to do this, then, um, then do it to the best of your ability.
Right. You know, so don't embarrass me. So then what was your first paid acting gig? I'm trying to remember the sequence of events here because there was a, um, out of college in Tallahassee, I went to Florida state and in Tallahassee, there was this summer theater thing theater Southeast, I think is what they called it.
And they would do, um, the first play I can remember that I think I got paid for was this. Uh, it was an original play by some guy who was getting his PhD there, you know, you know what I'm saying? And so, uh, and so I played a part in that and I, I probably didn't make that much money, but that was still, I was still in school, I think. Um, but the first, the first gig I was sort of, I traveled for that.
I was definitely like, it was the job was I played, uh, Petruchio in Timmy of the Shrew, um, for this, for this little theater and, uh, in Jacksonville. Yeah. I, that's what I mean.
I, you know, I was very fortunate. I, you know, I was 23, I was 23. What was I doing there? Uh, I, but, you know, of course my, maybe because I was 23 and no one else would have taken that job.
I don't know. Um, so is this where you also say that, you know, I was working as a PhD, keep getting his PhD, uh, doing a play, this guy's name, what was his name? Lin-Manuel Miranda. No, I wish.
No, um, no, he, he, uh, I don't even know where that guy is now, actually. He's probably teaching somewhere. Um, but, uh, wouldn't that be a great story? So let's, um, let's, let's take our first break.
And then I want to move into your time here at the festival. So for those of you who listened to the podcast or the radio show before know that instead of taking commercial breaks, we ask our guests to provide a list of, of songs, usually four or five. And we, we choose four to play that, that means something to them.
And I will tell you between you and me and everybody else listening that, uh, I was concerned because I sent that email and said, Hey, I need your songs, you know, a few days while ago, like had her back. And I thought, boy, he's a pretty talented guy is what's the protocol. Do I, do I figure out, you know, maybe he'd send them to Lauren and I didn't know, Lauren.
So, so I, I, I took the leap nervously to send you a text and cause I understand the power dynamic. And, uh, and, and you said, you responded with, um, yeah, I I've had, what would you analysis paralysis of this song? And I thought how very Hamlet-ish of you to have this thought. And, and it is a hard thing to do choosing these songs.
I mean, people don't think that it would be, but, but I know I'm glad no one asks me. I've asked many, many people and no one has said to me, what five would they be? So you give me a list and, uh, and your analysis paralysis paid off because they are, they're solid. And one of these that we're going to start with is my, one of my all time, absolute favorite songs and has some of the best lyrics about humanity ever.
And it's a song called both sides now by Joni Mitchell. Can you tell us why you chose this song? Uh, I, well, I, uh, most of the songs that I had chosen, first of all, I have to say in typical me fashion, I had like eight songs like that. I, you know, once we had this discussion, I have to read that email.
And then I was on Spotify, just been like listening in my garage, just listening through all of these songs. And then I spent several days, just not, not winnowing them down. So that's where the analysis paralysis came.
It's like, you know, I actually could have sent you songs right away. Um, but this, I, the, the songs that I ended up kind of choosing were songs that are either part of my Hamlet, uh, experience, um, in terms of prep or songs that have helped me find the parallels between Hamlet and myself, right. In terms of, in terms of getting myself kind of in sync with the character.
And so this song, I think more so than, because I, you know, my, my first instinct is to, is to, you know, the song is all about looking at these major, uh, things in our life, right. Like love or nature, uh, or life in general, right. And having these feelings about them, these very specific perspectives about them.
And then, and, and then through the course of experience, uh, generally negative experience in this song, I suppose, but, um, coming out with somehow a greater and lesser understanding of these major things, right. A greater and lesser understanding of love, a greater and lesser understanding of life. And I've certainly felt that personally.
Um, and I think that's certainly for Hamlet, right. That I think this is someone who you get the impression was a lover of life, right. Someone who, uh, really took in the beauty and the majesty, um, of existence and of, and of people of the world and has all of those.
And, you know, his reason for feeling those things, you know, the, the, the sort of benchmarks for all of these things become poisoned and inverted and they've turned on their head. And then he is left with like trying to reconcile this thing that still exists, but it doesn't exist in the same way to him. Right.
And somehow, uh, and somehow he, he has to kind of move on from that. And I think when we meet him, he, he doesn't know how to move on from that, right. He doesn't know how to reconcile these two different sides.
Um, and in some ways I think that that's sort of the journey that he goes on. Uh, and it's a journey that I think I've, I've been on myself of getting to the end where, you know, when he, when he recognizes that there's something really fishy about the, there's something really fishy about the, the fencing match about the wager. And he says, it doesn't matter, you know, and Horatio was like, you need to stop.
If you don't, you know, if something's fishy, you need to stop it. I'll, I'll go and tell them, like, we don't need to do this, you know? And then his response seems to kind of live somewhere, uh, live somewhere in where this song is, which is to say, right. That like, you know, I have done everything I could to wrap my mind around everything, you know, and I've tried to, I've tried to scheme my way to an answer and I've tried to scheme my way to a solution.
Uh, and I just somehow end up right back here anyway. Uh, and really there's nothing in some ways, there's nothing for me to understand. And there's nothing for me to do except to just meet the moment when it comes, cause it's going to come.
And so that's just what I'm going to do. I'm just going to try to be, I'm just going to try to live where I am and trust that I, I may be not as in control of everything as I thought I was, you know? Uh, so now old friends are acting strange. Yeah.
Shake their heads and say, I've changed. Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, and that, that too, and that's a bit that, that piece of work speech, right? That idea of, you know, I used to find such joy in things. I used to be, uh, and certainly the madness literally is acting is, is acting very differently. Okay.
But yeah. So let's listen to the song. This is, uh, both sides now by Joni Mitchell.
Angel. I've looked at clouds that way. But now they only block the sun, they rain and snow on everyone.
So many things I would've done, but clouds got in my way. I've looked at clouds from both sides now, and up and down, and still somehow it's cloud illusions. I recall, I really don't know clouds.
Moons and dunes and ferris wheels, the busy dancing way you feel. As every fairy tale comes real, I've looked at love that way. But now it's just another show, you leave them laughing when you go.
And if you care, don't let them know, don't give yourself away. I've looked at love from both sides now, and give and take, and still somehow it's love's illusions. I recall, I really don't know love at all.
Tears and fears and feeling proud, just say I love you right out loud. Dreams and schemes and circus crowds, I've looked at life that way. But now old friends are acting strange, they shake their heads, they say I've changed.
Well something's lost, but something's gained in living every day. I've looked at life from both sides now, then win and lose, and still somehow it's life's illusions. I recall, I really don't know life.
I've looked at life from both sides now, then up and down, and still somehow it's life's illusions. I recall, I really don't know life. That was Both Sides Now by Joni Mitchell.
You're listening to the Apex Radio Hour Utah Shakespeare Festival Edition. I'll turn it back to you, Ryan. Thank you, Lauren.
We're here with Walter Kmiec. He's an actor here at the Shakespeare Festival this season. He plays Hamlet in Hamlet and Achilles in Troilus and Cressida, as well as some other roles he's played over the years.
We'll talk about that here in a second. But as we come out of that song, I'm interested in this idea of, there's a lyric in there that talks about, now it's just another show, leave them laughing when you go. How does one not feel that way? I will tell you, I lecture a lot in my classes, and there are times when it's just, oh, we're going to talk about, this is where I need to get in the Civil War.
I just walk in, and 50 minutes later, I've walked out. I would imagine that's not something that works well as an actor, like the autopilot, or does it? Well, it depends. I think it depends on what you mean by autopilot, because what I find sometimes is the times that I feel maybe that I could have applied myself more as an actor are the times where I tried too hard to hang on to what I was doing.
I felt going in, like, why am I going to do this Civil War thing again? I have to present this thing again, you know, no mystery, no discovery, nothing, you know. And then I was trying, I would go into something like that and try to make it more than what it was, right? Or I would, um, I would try really hard to be engaging or fun or, uh, and I found that as an actor, you know, I think, I think for those of us who, um, for those of us who get to do it a lot, there is a certain quality where like, you know, you, you know how to put on a show, right? Like, you know, you know, you know, the things that you can do, um, you get a sense of what works about your work and how to kind of go out there and do you, and do you, you know, successfully. But I do think the flip side of that though, is when you first start, there's a sense of when on those days when you don't show up, right? The you that you're wanting doesn't show up and you have to pretend to be you.
Um, there's a panic that can arise, right? Uh, and you're suddenly like, Oh my God, I got there. I, uh, this is going to be terrible. Like it's going to be terrible tonight.
Um, and so you, you know, you, you, you push, you push very hard. Um, and then it just gets worse in some ways, right? Like you, you start doing all of the, like the bad version, like the bad acting version of you, whatever that is, you start, you know, like you can feel yourself, you feel yourself doing it. Um, and what I, the place that I'm in now is that what I try to do is just trust the work that I've done and recognize also that like a lot of times the way that we feel about our work is not the way that others do.
And a day that I don't think anything particularly interesting happened. Someone, you know, someone would come up to you and say, that was, thank you. You know, thank you for that performance.
Or that was so moved or this moment here where you felt really false. They're like, I, that was an incredible moment for me. Um, and conversely days where you just feel really great, you know, and you're like, Oh my God, I was so on.
I was like everything. I was like, I was feeling everything. I was, I was not in my head.
Nobody says anything. And so, uh, uh, I think you learn to, to, or at least I've tried to learn to trust the work and trust the process. Right.
And trust that like, I, again, I'm not as in control of this, uh, as I think I am like a lot of my control came in my preparation. And a lot of my control came in the room when we were rehearsing and I, uh, I helped determine what it was that we were going to do. Um, and the rest of it is, is, um, the autopilot in some ways could, could also be a symptom of you tuning in.
Right. Like, I mean, sometimes the times that I walk away with, with a, with a certain kind of mystery are the times where I don't even know what happened. You know, I just come out and people were like, wow, that scene went really great.
And I was like, I don't even know what happened. You know, like I, I disappeared. I went into the zone a little bit.
And so I think, I don't know. Uh, and it's, it's a collab. I mean, and it's not just you, right? I mean, you have, what is the cast? 15, 15, something like that.
Other people that are also experiencing their own little world in that bigger, yes. In that bigger canvas. Yes.
And I, I think that my personal experience is now that I find where, um, I'm feeling, I'm feeling good about, I'm feeling good about my work. Not, you know, not like, oh my God, I killed that. But more so, uh, more so like, I think I inched myself further along or I, uh, I felt really connected.
It's when I, it's when I stopped trying so much to make something happen. And I just fall back on where my, you know, I fall back on where I am and I'm, I fall back on the audience and I fall back on my scene partners and I just try to listen and I don't try to make anything happen. Um, yeah.
It's interesting. I mean, you've played here at the festival, some of the big dogs, right? I mean, you played Benedict, you've played Macbeth, you've played Hamlet and, and some of these, I mean, have some really, some of the most well-known words. I mean, I have Shakespeare's rights.
I mean, I think about the, is this a dagger I see before me speech and the audience is just silent. And, and, and it's like, you are meant to carry that weight or, you know, the very famous to be or not to be or whatever else. I mean, these are speeches where we, as an audience are conditioned to be like, this is a moment.
Right. And, and it seems to me that those moments can be a pretty heavy load. Is that true? They can be, um, you know what I'll say is the heaviest I ever feel the load of, of those speeches is when I have to say them for the first time in front of my cast, in front of my peers.
Right. Because, um, that's the first time that anyone is going to see any iteration of this production, like any sense of what this is going to be. That's the first time you're going to hear it.
Right. And everyone's hearing it at the same time. And everyone knows the speech and everyone has seen, you know, uh, especially if they're, if they're those famous ones, right.
They've seen five different actors do this. Um, and they certainly have their favorites. And so there's a sense of like, all right, well, what's Walt going to do, you know? Um, and that's, that's sort of the most pressure I feel.
I, I have been fortunate enough in those experiences, these, uh, with those parts, you know, here at the festival where the directors that I'm working with are not interested in, uh, putting a spotlight on those speeches in the sense that, because I think we've probably all seen those productions where the big speech comes up and the actor just takes a breath, walks out to the audience, right. And just takes it like takes in the grandeur of this speech and then begins the speech, right. Um, that is not, that is not my bag as an audience member.
Um, and I also am not, I don't, I don't like that as an actor. And I've been fortunate that the directors I've worked with are much more interested in, in how those speeches fall into the story of the play. Um, and I remember a couple of people last year that tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow speech, uh, in, in Macbeth, I, I, I guess is one of these is one of these speeches that can sort of, we're going to stop the play to do this speech, you know, moments.
Um, and I was always drawn to the fact that in the text, the, the section that speech falls in like the middle of verse line, which means that, uh, one, the other actor speaks part of the line and I'm supposed to come in right away with the next line, right. There's no sort of, there's no sort of pondering and then beginning the speech. It's right.
It's like the queen, my Lord is dead. She should have died hereafter. Uh, and it's hard because that's a, that's a really quick jump.
Uh, and I don't, you know, I didn't quite, I didn't quite not take a pause, but I think people, I remember people talking to me saying like, I was surprised by, um, I was surprised by how that speech just felt, uh, like it, like it came on so quickly, you know, or, uh, how it just folded into the scene. And that, that to me is sort of where the speech is really supposed to live, right. That it's, it's a response to this piece of news.
And it's also right. Like it, it's not separate from, from the other context of the play, which is that, you know, like his, his, the end is barreling, you know, he's barreling towards the end and he's trying everything he can to not have the end come. And that speech, there's something about it where to me, anyway, the, the, the recognition of like, boy, the witches told me so many things, but they didn't tell me they didn't, this wasn't part of the plan, right.
That like, she's not supposed to kill herself or she's not supposed to die. You know, like, that's not, that's not, that wasn't supposed to happen. And so the discovery of like tomorrow and tomorrow and tomorrow, right.
It's this, it's this gut punch, right. Rather than sort of an academic treatise on, you know, the, the cyclical nature of, of being a nothingness, right. It's a gut punch and it's a discovery about the way life works and right.
And, and, and it comes on, it comes on hard and quick. It's an ex, it's an extemporaneous comment from Macbeth, not a prepared oration. Right.
And that's the other thing I think about a lot where I remember saying this, was it to Beth or, cause you know, these obviously with Hamlet too, I mean, you know, there's, and everyone here has their favorite Hamlets. They've seen 10 Hamlets, you know? And I just kept having to tell myself, I was like, you know, the only person that doesn't know what Hamlet's about to say is Hamlet, you know? And I tried to use that as much as I could with regards to like what those speeches are and not, not try to use them to sort of, I mean, you could read it in a book. If you want to just study the speech and listen to the beauty of it, then like you can just go on Gutenberg and, and read it, you know, or you can go on YouTube and just watch a scene from your favorite Hamlet and just watch it to be or not to be over and over and over.
Right. Or for the purposes of what we're doing here tonight, that speech is coming as part of a, as part of a journey that he is on. And it should feel to me like a discovery.
It should feel like something's changing in him. Not that he's just descending from on high and giving us, giving us this wisdom about, you know, about life and death. And that's my guiding light, I guess.
We've seen Hamlet before, but Hamlet hasn't seen Hamlet before. That's right. Right.
Hamlet hasn't seen Hamlet before. And, and Hamlet, Hamlet is living this life moment to moment. And I am living this life as Hamlet, Hamlet moment to moment.
And so I, I sort of have to trust my own responses to what's happening in the story. And the way that I am using the text to respond to the story is going to be its own thing. And I, I think if I try too hard to make it good, make it as good as, you know, Gilgud or Olivier or, you know, or whatever people thought about Brian Vaughn or Quinn or right.
Like if I try to make it like my version, really great, I will, I will fail. I will fall flat. There's no way to do that.
There's no way to actually just, you know, prepare that and do it. And so all you can really do is, is do the work on the text, listen to your, you know, stay present, listen to your scene partners, and then allow the moment to be what the moment is when it comes kind of like what kind of like Hamlet, right? The readiness is all, and that's all, that's all you can do. It's not really up to you how good any of it is, unfortunately, right? If only, if only it was.
And it's not about favorites, right? I mean, it's not that the play isn't marketed as Walter commits as Hamlet, right? I mean, and I think that's where we get in this idea of, we slip in of who's your favorite Hamlet? Well, you know, I'm, I was, I'm a different person now when I sit and see your Hamlet than when I saw Brian's Hamlet or when I saw Quinn's Hamlet and, and it's just a different, it's a, it's, I am a different person. Yeah. So Hamlet, the actor that plays Hamlet is not, it's me that imbues that person with the nature of what I need Hamlet to be.
That's right. And I can't, that's the thing, right? As, as an actor, I can't control all of your life experiences that have, that have arrived at the point that you're seeing the play that are going to influence what you think about the play, whether I'm there or not. Right.
And although if you could, my life probably would have been more boogie task. That's right. You would have a lot more dancing.
That's it. You would have been moonwalking. So let's, let's not bring that image.
Let's, let's go to our next break. This is a song that I'd never heard before, but since I've listened, I mean, it has become interesting to me in the last few days. This is called God's Whisper by Rory.
Can you tell us why you chose that song? Yeah, this I would, I'm really interested in something that I hadn't seen before, like for myself, recognized before in all of the times that I've seen Hamlet or worked on Hamlet was this sense that Hamlet begins to feel like he's a like, he's an instrument of something larger, right? There's like this discovery, I think of how swept up he is in something that he doesn't, he can't fully wrap his mind around or comprehend. There's a lot of language in there about like after he kills Polonius, right? He says heaven sees it fit to punish me with this and this with me that I must be their scourge and minister, right? That there's this sense of something is wrong here and I've been tasked with, with fixing it. I think also accursed spite that ever the time is out of joint, accursed spite that ever I was born to set it right.
And then this sense of right. That moment I talk about at the end about before the readiness is all right where he says there's a special providence in the fall of a sparrow, right? There's something kind of about the cosmic nature of what's at play and where Hamlet is constantly trying to understand it, but sees himself as being a tool or an instrument that was really fascinating to me. And so this song, the lyrics of this song feel to me a bit like Hamlet and Claudius.
I think that there's lyrics in there about I won't live a lie, right? I won't live a life on my knees. You think I am nothing. You've got something coming, right? Because I hear God's whisper, right? There's this sense of like, I have got something on my, something is coming for you and through me, right? And that's a really strange place to try to beat, put your mind in.
You know, I think if you're not, if you're not some sort of like religious zealot or a madman, right? Like to try to kind of mentally put yourself in a place of like, I am the instrument. I am, right. I am the tool through which the universe is going to correct this thing.
Music really helps. So, so this song is one that I, that helps me, helps me get into a place where I can, I can believe, I can believe in myself as some sort of, some sort of force, right? Like I, I think for a lot of us, for a lot of us in the middle, I think it's really hard for us to be self-righteous. And so I think to kind of put ourselves in the place where we can truly feel self-righteous and justified in condemning someone, right? Like I'm, I have everything right on my side, right? That's the song sort of helps me get to that place.
Cause I can't, I can't get to that place on my own. I'm not really that kind of person. All right.
This is God's Whisper by Rari. Live a life on my knees. You think I am nothing.
You've got something coming, something coming. Say good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good, good. All in my name, I'm the Savior of the nation.
I am the King of Israel. All in my name, I'm the Savior of the nation. I am the King of Israel.
I am the Savior of the nation. I am the King of Israel. All in my name, I'm the Savior of the nation.
I am the Savior. Savior. Savior.
Savior. Savior. Savior.
Savior. Savior. That was God's Whisper by Rari.
You're listening to the Apex Radio Hour Utah Shakespeare Festival Edition. I'll turn it back to you, Ryan. Thank you, Lauren.
We are here with Walter Kmiec. He's an actor this season in the Shakespeare Festival, plays Hamlet in Hamlet and Achilles in Troilus and Cressida, and those two shows run in rep in the Ingolstadt Theatre with Twelfth Night and in the Randall they have See How They Run, She Loves Me, and Something Rotten, and in the Aines are producing The Book Club Play and Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. So, you've been with the festival.
Let's talk about that. I mean, you started out, I mean, you came in as a heavy hitter, right? Benedict, you weren't spear carrier number one, right? And that was a couple seasons ago, and then you played Macbeth and you were touchstone in, As You Like It, another Beth Lopes production. Interestingly enough, the 10th time we had done As You Like It, and now it's the 10th time we've done Hamlet, so.
That's me. You bring me in for the, yeah. The decathlete, and I don't remember this or not, but the Shakespeare Festival has a summer program called Playmakers, and it's for junior actors and those kinds of things, and it's a week-long event, and these are kids that are, what, six to probably twelve, something like that? I think that's the range, yeah.
And last season, they always do little scenes from the Shakespeare shows, and last season they did a scene from Macbeth, and I don't remember this or not, but you were there on that last day, and sitting in the back, and the, which I think is a beautiful thing, that the acting company comes and supports these kids. It's so cool that we get to, yeah. And the kid playing Macbeth was probably 10, maybe, and giving this speech, and just got tripped up, and just, you could see this mortification on this little kid's face.
We were sitting in the Adams Theatre, you know, and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, Walter Kmiec yells the line. Yeah. Macbeth, Shakespeare's Macbeth, he gives the line to this kid, and it was this beautiful moment of, like, people were crying.
What? There was tears. I was in the back, I didn't see the tears. That you would help this kid out on the stage, and that you were there, so.
Well, you know, I think I just felt, I felt what everyone felt, which is, you know, you just want to help, and I could. I was just like, I thought somebody was on book, or I thought, you know, because, not that it isn't an important experience of going up, right, of having the moment of, like, what do I say, and then you have to sort of figure it out. We've all had that experience, but I think, you know, you're watching this kid, you're just trying to do, he's trying to do this, he's probably terrified, and so I felt, I just felt like I could, I could help, and so that's, yeah.
That was a lovely moment. Thank you, yeah. I also, I was a little embarrassing, too, because then it's, you know, you can't help but draw attention to yourself by doing something like that as well, but I, in my head, I was like, well, better to just, better to take the hit on that, and, and, and let the kid finish the scene, you know.
It was great. So, I'm interested in this idea of, well, let's just say, in the, the beautiful part, I guess, in some ways of rep, is that you work with lots of different people, but also lots of the same, and I guess maybe there might be a that may not be a beautiful part, but, but I think about, so, for example, last season, you were with, you were touchstone with Kalen Jordan as Rosalind, and, and those kinds of things, and then now you're Hamlet with Kalen Jordan as Horatio, Blake Henry, I mean, there, how does that, when you come back and see people again in, in these productions, does that help? Is that a, is there a environment there, or? I think so. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I, I mean, Blake's been here every year that I've been here. So, I'm, I'm very familiar with him. I trust him.
We, you know, we've done, we've done scenes together, so we have, like, a physical memory of, of working with each other, and we also have a physical memory of rehearsing together, right, being in the room together. And so, to have someone like Blake playing Laertes, with whom I have this long history that ultimately turns sour, right? My relationship with Blake isn't sour, at least I hope it's not, but it's, there's, there are things that I don't have to work for. There's a familiarity that I don't have to work for with Blake that I already have on stage, which is, which is really, I guess, helpful, right? Or it's, it's, it's one less thing.
And then certainly with Kaylin, it's, it is interesting, isn't it? Because I think my relationship to her last year was more of, like, you know, like a sarcastic uncle. And she, you know, she is this young woman who's, like, kind of making her way in the world and dealing with these incredible circumstances. And I'm sort of like a strange advisor, but I'm in that sort of weird role, right? Or I'm like an older kind of, like, brother, uncle kind of position.
And then here, that's a bit, that's inverted, right? Where she is this advisor role to me, and she's someone who has a level head, someone that I trust, someone that I lean on very heavily. And I have, I think with Kaylin, you know, she's someone who has a person I, I really respect. I think she has a self-possessiveness that I, you know, really admire.
And so to have her as her ratio, again, that's just something I don't, I don't have to work for, right? Just someone that I, I gravitate towards, that I trust, that I feel comfortable with, right? That I, that I want, whose approval I want in some sort of way, right? And so I think, like, having that kind of person as her ratio is, is perfect. Cause I think Hamlet is constantly using her ratio as a guide of like, if you saw this thing, like I saw the King freak out at the play, but I want to see him freak out at the play. If you saw him freak out, if you saw what I saw, then I know that's even more assurance, you know, that I'm right, that this thing did happen.
Right. Right. And I think it's an interesting relationship in this particular production that I haven't seen in others is that, that her ratio isn't just a servant, like her ratio, you can see as watching her friend who she's, I mean, in a very paternalistic love, I mean, a friend descending into a place that she doesn't know how to, how to help him out of.
Right. So I, Hamlet is great. I mean, you know, it's no Pericles, but Hamlet is great.
But I want to talk about Troilus and Cressida and I want to talk about Achilles because I, I remember, so I saw Troilus and Cressida because I do education stuff. I saw it at a dress rehearsal. And I remember in those environments, it's, it's smaller and there's just education people and tech people and stuff.
And you first walk out as Achilles with this golden mane of hair and some kind of Hawkeye Pierce bathrobe on. Yeah. And, and my boxers.
Yeah. And you walk down the stairs and you, you, uh, did some kind of hair waggle and the, the, the hair shimmers and someone in the audience went, Oh, Walter. Really? I didn't hear that.
Oh, Walter. That's the, so it's such an interesting piece and we don't do, I mean, this is only the third time we've done Troilus and Cressida. Um, and, and I want to talk about this idea of, of Achilles and your thoughts about preparing for that role.
I mean, obviously preparing for Hamlet is challenging in a whole level of whole variety of ways, but let's talk about Achilles because I mean, he's an interesting guy, right? And what has led my, my colleague in my, my friend in the history department is a Roman Greek historian. That's what he does. So we've talked about the Iliad and Achilles since this time, uh, a lot, and I've learned so much, but I'm interested in your take on this when, when they said, okay, Walter, we want you to play Hamlet.
Oh, and we want you to play. I don't know which order, which came first, but I want you to play Achilles. Tell me about that, which are two very opposite people, two very opposite people.
Uh, well, one I'll say Beth and I both feel, you know, we have this idea of philosophy, which I, which I, I don't think is, is particularly groundbreaking when it's when I've heard from several different people, including Jeff Kent, uh, which is that, you know, anyone can play Hamlet by that. I don't necessarily mean, um, that anyone off the street can play Hamlet, but that any actor, uh, any actor who is equipped to essentially to perform Shakespeare's text, right. And, um, and, and to access all those different emotional places that Hamlet needs to go to can play Hamlet.
Um, because it's just such a 360 degree kind of representation of a human experience, right. That like you can find your, everybody can find themselves in Hamlet and there have been so many different kinds of Hamlet's just even physically gender wise. Right.
And it all just seems to work. It just all seems to kind of make sense. And I think it's because Hamlet sort of plays you, right.
You don't really play Hamlet. Uh, and so with Achilles, I, so anyway, when I found out I was going to be him, I was like, Oh yeah. Okay.
Like I can, I, I, I see myself in this. I know, I know how to do, you know, I feel like I, I can, uh, I have a good starting place, but when I found out I was going to play Achilles, I think I, I got freaked out. I got a little freaked out.
I think because I was like, that's, I'm, I, I am playing the greatest like warrior in the Greek army. Right. Or, or who is thought to be the greatest warrior just in this whole war.
I'm going to be that guy. We've got Lavore, we've got like John Keebler, who's like a tree trunk of a man, you know? Uh, and I'm Achilles, right? And I was like, okay, sure. You know, um, I wasn't exactly, uh, I didn't feel very confident going in.
I mean, I learned it early enough that I started to go to the gym, but even then, like, I don't care how much gym, uh, I could do all the gym in the world. I'm still not going to be like Lavore or John Keebler. So, so there was a part where I, I, there was a moment where I had to just be like, you know what? It's that's the, I'm, I'm Achilles, you know? So it's like, I, I just have to accept that and trust that the people who put me there aren't worried about the things I'm worried about.
And, uh, uh, and at the end of the day, I can't, I can't cast myself, you know? So, um, but it's interesting when you're talking about Achilles, because there's obviously the Achilles that we all know from the Iliad. And then there's the Achilles that's in this play. Uh, and we are dealing with the Elizabethan perspective on the Greeks, which is not a perspective that we share, right.
Of, of the Greeks. Um, the, you know, uh, the Romans saw themselves as being descended from the Trojans. Right.
And so, uh, the Romans had very complicated opinions about, about the Greeks. And thus by extension, the Elizabethans who sort of saw themselves, like there's like a founding myth, I think of, of, of England or Britannia or whatever that is descended from the Trojans, right. Or the Romans, excuse me.
So by extension, right. They share the perspective of the Trojans that the Romans share. And so they share the perspective on the Greeks that the Romans share.
So the Greeks in this play are not right. These aren't, this is not the Odysseus of the Odyssey. And this is not the Achilles of, uh, of the Iliad.
Right. Instead you're dealing with a character who is like the Achilles in Iliad, a huge prima Donna, right. And like the Achilles, uh, full of pride and, uh, and obviously like, uh, uh, an overconfidence, but perhaps unlike the Achilles, right.
The things that I do in this play and the way that I kill Hector in this play is, is very far removed from, uh, the way that, uh, that Achilles kills Hector in the Iliad. Right. It's a very kind of fair, like one-to-one I'm going to beat you.
Uh, what I think is similar, however, is that Achilles is so vain and so prideful that even in the Iliad, you know, um, the way that he treats Hector's body after he kills Hector, right. Dragging him all around, right. The walls of Troy, not burying his body, letting it fester for days and days.
Right. Um, the sense of dishonor in that, right. The, the sense of like allowing your grief and your pain, uh, to infect you to the point that you, you, you poison your own pride, right.
You don't have a sense of, of real honor. It's just pride. Um, that is similar in this play.
Well, I, I think it's interesting that it even denies Hector the death that he, that he deserves. Yeah. Yes.
Yeah. It's a totally dishonorable right. I'm going to get my buddies and, uh, I'm going to get my buddies to do it because I am out of shape.
That's the other interesting thing too, right. Is that like Achilles has spent all this time hanging out in his tent, uh, just, um, abstaining that when he finally comes, he thinks it's going to be this easy thing. He thinks he's just going to be able to kill Hector right away.
And if he was at peak, you know, peak Jordan, then he could, he would have just killed Hector, but he's out of shape, you know, and he's out of, he's out of practice. Hector has been fighting consistently this for seven years. Achilles has been just sitting in his tent, you know? Uh, and so, well, to be fair, if that's how Achilles looks out of shape, I'm in, thank you.
I'm in the bad. I'm in a bad way. Job of the hut.
I, um, but I, yeah, so that's, that's hard. I think, you know, cause I'm a human being, I obviously would like to feel cool, you know? And so playing Achilles is a, is a sort of, uh, experience of, you have to convince yourself, uh, that you're really cool. Even if like the person inside of you does not, doesn't think you're very cool at all.
I don't think Achilles is very cool at all. That's an interesting idea that, and you've mentioned this with Hamlet as kind of the, maybe holy warrior isn't the right word, but, but the crusader, right. Firm in the belief of, of I am, I am vengeance.
Right. And, and at the same time, you have this guy, Achilles, that you have to convince yourself that you are right, that you are right. I mean, how, how, how was that process of taking two people who are completely unlike you as a human being and inhabiting, letting them inhabit you to convince you that they are right.
Yeah. I, that's a great question. Uh, I don't know that I could provide, I don't think I have a satisfactory answer.
I think that one thing I think one has to do, or I feel, I feel compelled to do is to try to find the contradiction in that, right. That like, um, as I got, as I got farther along with Achilles, as I began on, I began to perceive that, that Achilles is a deeply, uh, insecure person, right. That the sense of this sense of your, uh, this, the source of your pride and the source of your vanity or your beliefs in yourself, the source of your identity is only rooted in your legacy and rooted in the perspective of others.
Right. Um, is actually kind of a lonely place to be right. It's not, you can't sort of sit self-satisfied in yourself.
Achilles gets off on the fact that he could win this war, but that he doesn't. And by, and thereby everyone really wants him, wants his approval, wants him to join the war, right. It's constantly after him constantly coming to his tent, like, please fight, please join.
And it isn't until Odysseus essentially gets the plan to say, you know, the best way to sort of get Achilles involved is to forget about him and to choose someone else to fight Hector because Achilles is not going to let that stand. Right. Um, and I love it that it's to let Achilles to forget about Achilles, but let us know, let him know that we're going to forget.
Oh yeah. Because that's it, right. You have to sort of make a show of it.
Uh, and that to me, you know, I, that was when I, when I had learned that, or when I had discovered that for myself, um, that was a great way in because I just began to realize that, um, that this is a person who is terrified that he's, that he's not the person, uh, that he is, that he's benefited from being right. And so then he, uh, but again, you know, it's complicated cause then he decides he's going to, you know, he's like, okay, well let me go, let me check Hector out, you know, and then he, he tells Hector, he's like, I'm going to meet you tomorrow. And then we find out, you know, he's got this like Trojan honey on the side that he's like going to, you know, that he's involved with.
And then she's like, please, you promised me you wouldn't fight. And then he decides, I know I can't fight. I'm not going to fight.
And it isn't until, um, Patroclus dies and he, and he thinks that Hector has killed Patroclus that then his reasons for joining are, um, our grief, you know, are full of grief and rage and anger. And then he, um, don't have anything to do with honor or legacy or right. Um, which is an interesting, interesting thing.
As you think about this particular play and what I tell people is we're, as I'm orienting them in the grove about this place specifically is if you have read even like the Wikipedia version of this play or whatever, forget it because it's not that right. I mean, it's like the thing about Troilus and Cressida is in my mind, it's just not, I mean, it's just not Shakespeare's best work in many ways. And it looks like you look at it and there's all these weird pieces that don't fit together.
And what this cut of the script has done is given us this show where it all fits. And it's a beautiful version of this play. I think, well, I think that, uh, you know, a lot of credit to Carolyn, uh, the director who had a, you know, kind of a clear vision of it.
I, I also think though, it's similar to Antony and Cleopatra in, in some ways where I think that, um, people, I think that if, if one goes into this play expecting it, expecting a tragedy, right. That I think that you are going to find a lot of gaps, but I think if you understand it, or if you frame it as a satire, right, then suddenly all of the behavior, right. The, the, the strange bits of comedy and commentary on war, right.
And the sense, also the sense too, of how it just ends without resolution, which is of course, I think with war and conflict, we all want to put some sort of mission accomplished button on it, right. To think that we, we did this or we didn't do this. Right.
But in the end, right. World War II leads to the cold war, right. That like there's, um, things don't have, uh, the finality that we, that, that we can find so comforting and this play certainly in structure certainly reflects that, right.
That like people don't wrap up very neatly. Uh, their behavior is contradictory. Uh, the play just sort of leaves you in a way, and doesn't seem to have like a perspective on what it just showed you.
And I think in a way it's, it's one of the most modern of Shakespeare's plays that like, that's a play that even structurally could have just been written today, right. Like could be sort of inverting all of these heroes. And that's the other thing too, it takes these heroic ideals and it completely inverts them or frames them in such a way that you don't, they don't feel very heroic at all.
Uh, and so I think Shakespeare was, you know, I, the time in which Shakespeare was living was a time, uh, of intense political suspicion and surveillance, right. And people feeling, um, like their place in court, their place in the, uh, in society was not secure that you could just be like, you know, there's all that language about fortune's wheel. Right.
And a lot of Shakespeare's patrons essentially were riding high and then executed by the queen. Right. Uh, there was a lot of anxiety about like, you know, we, we spent a hundred years fighting over her, you know, uh, over, um, over succession.
And now the queen doesn't have like the queen's at the end of her reign and she doesn't have an heir. Right. And so there's all of this sense of, uh, high patriotism, but with total, uh, insecurity about the future.
And you can see, I mean, that's like, that's, that's so clear in this to me, right. This sense of like, not really being able to put too fine a point on, on any sort of any kind of win or loss that happens in the play. Um, and Carolyn, I think really honed in on that aspect.
And so she, I think she geared her cut towards that. And so where I think probably other productions, I would imagine, um, maybe try to approach the, the, the more comedic aspects or the more tragic aspects, right. In extreme, I think Carolyn was like, this is a satire.
You know, these people are, I think that's one of the reasons why Achilles is, has this glorious blonde wig and shows up in a robe and bunny slippers. Right. Cause we're meant to sort of be like, that's Achilles, you know, and it's not Brad Pitt.
That's not Brad Pitt. You know, no, no, no, I don't. But I, but I think that, uh, I think there is a sense of these people, you know, sometimes the people who are in charge of things, I mean, whatever side of the political spectrum you're on.
Right. I think we've all had the experience of like the people that are sort of running things are kind of absurd. You know, like I, um, I had this idea about who they were and then you find out something about them and you're like, are these people at the, like, who are these people that are making these decisions? And that in Trojan Crest that I think is very much that, you know, where you're like, this is Odysseus.
Like, this is, this is Achilles. Even, I mean, even Hector is full of pride and he's, he's a bit dense, you know, and there's just this sense of like, well, what does that say about sort of heroes in general? Like, what does that say about any of us? Right. To me, it's, it's very much a, a MASH episode.
And I think that Carolyn, that was a guiding light for her. This idea of, of saying as much about the time of the Korean war as it is about the time of the 1970s, uh, with, with humor. And you never know where you're going to get, you don't watch MASH at night before bed, because it's either going to end in a really funny way or it's going to end in a way that's like, man, I can't go to bed like that.
Yes. And I, um, I think one of the things I really appreciate about it is that um, I did, I never served, uh, but I, you know, I've, I've, I've had family members who have served and certainly, you know, uh, grandfather, my grandfather served in the Korean war and my grandfather-in-law served in world war two. And it always struck me how the perspective of people who have been in war is very different than the perspective of people who have not been in war and their, their sort of view of soldiers and glory and wins and losses and what it all means.
Right. That like, I find a lot that the people I encounter, um, who have served or, or, or who are serving or have served in kind of, uh, historic battles have, you know, have this very different kind of takeaway about what the experience is or what it means or what they don't see themselves, you know, as heroes. They, you know, a lot of them see themselves as sort of survivors and they think about the difference between their being here and the person, the people they knew that aren't here.
Um, and so I think, uh, there's something really sobering about that, that I think is a bit in this play. Um, or at least in terms of the sobering aspects of the, of the way that we look at heroes, um, that I find really interesting. I, you know, I guess it feels, it feels more truthful to the experience I've had in talking to people who have been in war versus the people I know who have all these feelings about, about war, like positive or negative, but don't know any, like, don't, don't know anyone who has served in a war or have never served in a war.
And with, with your ability to practice, you're getting down boogie roots, right? You honor your parents in this show as well. Yeah, I suppose. I suppose so.
There's definitely a lot of my father in Achilles for sure. Let's take our, our, uh, final break. This is a song that, uh, I've chosen, you've chosen given us called heaven by talking heads.
Can you talk about why you chose this song? Yeah. Um, I, I, well, it's a very existential song. I think that, uh, I find as someone who, I guess as an artist, or, I mean, I don't know if my experience is specific to me as an artist or if I'm a more sensitive person than, than, than anyone else, but I think I, I concern myself a lot with trying to understand things, trying to understand the world, understand myself, understand the people that I know that I love, uh, and then figuring out what to do with that understanding.
Like, you know, what does that, what does that mean about how I should live my life or what does that mean about what I should do? Um, and that I find a big parallel in that with Hamlet. And I think the, the emotional impulse or the response to want to just check out a little bit, not necessarily, uh, uh, check out of life, like actually check out of life, like in a, to be or not to be kind of way, but to sort of fantasize the experience of nothingness or to fantasize about the experience of not having to make a decision or not, uh, not having to experience the highs and lows of life, right. Just to kind of, just to be on an even keel, um, uh, is something that I can understand.
And so this song, uh, you know, the chorus of the song is, I think heaven is a, is a place where nothing ever happens. Um, and to me that feels there's like a, there's, there's Hamlet in there, right? This, this idea of like the slings and arrows about Regis fortune, right. And, and wanting, you know, kind of a desiring, uh, to not have to be put in this position.
Okay. Thank you. This is heaven by talking heads.
That was heaven by the talking heads. You're listening to the apex radio hour, Utah Shakespeare festival edition. I'll turn it back to you, Ryan.
Thank you, Lauren. We're here with Walter Kmiec. He's an actor this season at the festival.
He's been here for a number of seasons, but this season he's playing Hamlet in Hamlet and Achilles in Troilus and Cressida. And we're moving into our final segment, which is about what's bringing us joy. But before we do that, I have to ask you this, does Hamlet and Achilles have a walk-up song? Wow.
I never thought about that. Does Hamlet and Achilles have a walk-up song? So, so, or I guess, does Walter as Hamlet and Achilles, like when you are in you, cause Jeffrey Kent talked about that Anthony had a walk-up song and what you'd listen to and when it was touchstone night or Macbeth night, he had a walk-up song. So when you're in the dressing room and it's, and places has been called, what's the play, what's the song that you listen to? Um, I, I listened to several songs, uh, as Hamlet.
The one that I, the one I begin with is, uh, take me home, uh, by Phil Collins. And I, I couldn't tell you why. I think there's something about it.
Um, there's something about the, the, the feel of it. Um, that brings me back to being, to being a kid, but also feels small, right. That where I sort of make myself feel small against this overwhelming kind of universe.
And I think, you know, I think that Hamlet certainly begins the play, uh, in this place of feeling, uh, kind of conquered by life a little bit. Um, and so there's something about, there's something about that. Take me home song that puts me, that begins the headspace.
Uh, and then I move on to other songs from that. But what does Achilles begin with? That's a really good question. I don't really listen to, um, to music as Achilles, but when I was thinking about it, I was listening to, uh, a lot of Prince, but I think there's something about the, you know, the, the, the, what is it like the kind of rock star, you know, just like kind of, um, Prince was sort of that, right.
Like just, you know, seven leagues above everyone else and sort of alien. Right. But also, you know, uh, also fully himself in a way that he didn't feel he had to answer for who he was and masculine in his unmasculinity.
Yeah. Yes. And I think, um, that was, uh, certainly musically, that was like a guiding light for me.
And then even I thought about a lot about athletes. Um, I thought a lot about NFL wide receivers. Uh, and then I thought a lot about Dennis Rodman, uh, and those were sort of my, you know what I mean? Just like these, these sorts of, and that, I think that was also part of.
My coming to terms with that. I wasn't Lavor and I wasn't John Keebler, but that didn't mean I couldn't like destroy all of them in battle. Right.
That like, uh, there was a sense of like, what makes Achilles a great warrior isn't, you know, it doesn't have to be size and it doesn't have to be, you know, intimidation. It could just be a Supreme confidence and skill and blessed by the gods and blessed by the gods, right? This sense that like, I, this, this is just who I am and everybody knows it. He is also a divine warrior.
That's right. You are playing divine warriors. All right.
So let's talk about, uh, the, our last segment, for those of you who listened to, we talk about what's bringing us joy. So we'll start with you, Walter commits. What are you currently watching, reading, listening to, or playing that is bringing you joy? Um, I, uh, there's two things I have been listening to.
There's this, there is this song called something about you by, uh, level 42, which is like this mid eighties. Do you know what I'm talking about? You do. Yeah.
Uh, my dad is, my dad loves this song. Uh, and I always, I, I always listened to it kind of with a chuckle thinking about my father, you know, but I've also just this, this summer I've gotten really. Um, the song has brought me a lot of joy and I actually built a playlist around it, or I've been trying to find other side, cause it's got a strange, it's like an English.
They were described as an English jazz funk pop band or something. And I was like, that's really weird. That's really interesting, you know? And so I was trying to, to find other songs that are in the realm of this song.
So that was something that was bringing me joy. And then as far as, uh, what I'm reading, I have been reading since I started here two years ago or three years ago, I don't know, but, um, I've been moving through, uh, Proust's, uh, uh, big, uh, remembrance of things past, right, which is now like broken down into seven books and I've been reading every summer that I've been here. I I've read one of them.
And so right now I'm reading the third one. Um, and, uh, you know, I find so far anyway, I find it to be kind of mind blowing in the sense that like, I think Proust is able to capture the experience of life moment to moment, uh, in a way that it feels incredibly overwhelmed. I mean, you know, he's, he's, he's a modernist.
And so it's one of his, uh, you know, he'll write like a page long sentence kind of a thing, you know, just like, just really going for it, you know, uh, but again, it's that experience of, of living moment to moment is right. Trying to kind of. Uh, trying to take in all of the visual information.
Right. But at the same time, I'm thinking like, I'm having memories of, uh, of people in my life, and then that's, that's taking me on a train even now, as I'm speaking to you, right. And so like life in, in it's in like the tiniest of moments is actually quite full of information and experience and life.
And it's like, if you, um, if you were able to kind of pull back and try to take all of it in totality, uh, it's very overwhelming and, and, uh, and so the, the Proust sort of does that right in, in like, that's probably why these books, that's probably why it's actually this one book is actually seven books. Right. Um, but I, I, but I find a lot of joy and a lot of affirmation in it, in terms of the experiences that I have, or the things that Proust experiences in the way that he thinks about them.
I find like, Oh, I'm, I, this isn't just me. Right. Or like, I'm not, I'm not alone here in terms of feeling overwhelmed by these things, right.
Or he'll notice something about life that when you read it, you're like, Oh my God. Yeah. That's why I've had this thought.
Or I've, I have felt this, or I've observed this, but it's one of those thoughts that you'll have that you'll just forget about, but Proust remembers it, right. And he'll, and he'll sort of insert it. Uh, and you won't know that you've thought that until Proust sort of.
Like Proust observes it. And then you're like, I've had this experience. I know exactly what this experience is.
Right. I've just never talked to it or discussed it or articulated it even for myself. Uh, and so that's brought me a lot of joy.
Very, very cool. Proust and level 42 probably never been mentioned in the same thing. What a world.
And now we are very excited because, uh, Lauren's parents are in the studio with us, Lola and Darren Byrd. Uh, Darren as a trustee of here at SUU, and he's on the Shakespeare festival board has been with us before. And Lola, you've been here before once or twice.
Is that right? I have. So we're excited to have them here. And of course, as the rule is everyone in the studio gets to answer the question.
So Lola Byrd, what are you currently watching, reading, listening to, or playing that is bringing you joy? Well, we talked about dancing earlier and, um, I'm just finishing up the latest season of dancing with the stars. It's a favorite show. Always a good one.
We love watching it. We do. Everyone's a fan too.
Okay. So I'm going to swing this mic over to Darren. Darren Byrd, what are you currently watching, reading, listening to, or playing that is bringing you joy? I just finished a book from one of my favorite historians, David McCullough.
It's actually written by his daughter and researcher after he died, compiling some of his works called History Matters. I've really enjoyed them. Yeah, I do like David.
Do you like me some David McCullough? One of these days when you're older, I'll tell you my David McCullough story. All right, Lauren Byrd, what are you currently watching, reading, listening to, or playing that is bringing you joy? So after hearing for years, my friends talking about this movie, I finally watched The Road to El Dorado last night. And it's just like a little fun action comedy.
That's the animated, the cartoon at the end? Yeah. Yeah. It's so fun.
And I didn't expect there to be songs. So that was an added bonus. It was just delightful.
Kenneth Branagh's in that, right? Isn't Kenneth Branagh one of the, like the blonde hailed conquistadors? Yep, yes he is. Yeah. And then Kevin Kline plays the other guy, but yeah.
What a world. What about you, Ryan? What are you currently watching, reading, listening to, or playing that's bringing you joy? I, as, as I have told you before, uh, Stuart Shelley, you know, Stuart, well, the education director, he and his family and my son and I, we do a game night, a couple of game nights every month. And, uh, we just had our, our game night for July last night.
And we played what I think is one of my favorite games and it's, it's complex in its simplicity and very challenging. It's called to, to also be involved with Hamlet, ghost fighting treasure hunters. And you're, it's a cooperative game where you just simply go into this house and have to pick up treasure and the ghosts are clear and you have to fight the ghosts and, uh, you think it's like you can learn the rules in, in less than a minute and you think, oh, this is easy, but it does not, it, it, it.
Blossoms and mushrooms. Very challenging. We played it a lot and lost it a lot.
And, but we finally made it only because I reread the rule book, the two pages and had misread two very critical rules that could have had many wins. That will do it. That actually makes me think of Hamlet.
There's a, there's a, uh, when Horatio is talking to the ghosts and, and she's saying, well, it's cut in our production, but when Horatio is saying, why are you here? You know, like, is there something wrong with the country? Like talk about it is right. And one of the things she says, if there is treasure that you buried when you were alive, that you, that you're coming back for, tell us, there you go. And I'm like, what a weird, what a random line, but yeah.
Ghost fighting treasure hunters. Well, thank you, Walter Kmiec for being here with us. It's been a joy and, and I, your, your conversation is, uh, mind blowing in many, many ways.
And there are many more questions, but I thank you for taking the time. I know it's, it's dear to you in this process. So as, as we go out, um, I should let you know that the Walter Kmiec, as I said, is playing Hamlet in Hamlet and Achilles in Troilus and Cressida, which is running in rep here in the 2026 season, our 65th with Twelfth Night in the Engelstadt theater, uh, in the Randall theater, we have Something Rotten, See How They Run and She Loves Me.
And the Aines theater will, I think, preview this week. And so this is the, we're in the mid middle of July here and open with the book club play and Mary Shelley's Frankenstein. Uh, if you're interested to learn more about those things and those plays, visit the website bard.org. Uh, if you also go down to the media section of the website, you'll see lots of more information, including some of the podcasts we've had, uh, Beth Lopes, the director of Hamlet on here as well.
Uh, also, if you're interested in more apex radio hour podcasts, you can find those under apex hour, the apex hour podcast, anywhere you get your podcasts. So we're going to go out with, uh, the final song that we've chosen, which is stranger in Moscow by Michael Jackson. Can you tell us why you chose this song? Yeah.
Um, this is a song, uh, that I've known for, uh, my dad's a big Michael Jackson fan and I have these memories of driving in the car with him and he would just Blair this song. Um, but again, you know, in thinking about Hamlet, this, uh, in terms of the, the sense of isolation that's in this song. And I think the sort of musical expression of isolation, I think you can like listen to the song and you can, you can immediately get right.
Um, uh, I, I think Hamlet is experiencing this, uh, full on, right. This, this sense of the world being turned on him and feeling, um, feeling incredibly, incredibly lonely and isolated, uh, and watched right. Uh, in the world, but not of the world.
Um, and, and trying to sort of reconcile that. Uh, and there's just some beautiful to me anyway, in this, in this, um, in the song, there's some beautiful like sonic textures that even, even apart from the lyrics. Um, it there's a meditative quality to it that I think if you're looking to sort of get into the, into Hamlet's headspace or emotional space, like I think this song for me, uh, really kind of really helps me get there.
Uh, I just think it's like kind of sparse and beautiful. And, um, and then of course, with the lyrics to, you know, thinking about, uh, how does it feel? I think the lyrics he was asking, you know, how does it feel when you're alone and you're cold inside? It feels like being a stranger in Moscow, which I think is a, uh, you know, a commentary on, um, being a stranger in a strange sort of place, but being in a place where you know that you're watched and, uh, uh, and that everyone, um, everyone is suspicious of you and you're sort of suspicious of everyone else. Right.
And ultimately you're alone and something's coming for you and what can you do about it? Right. Uh, which I think, again, there's a lot of parallels there with, uh, with Hamlet. And so, um, I just thought it would be, uh, I thought it would be kind of a, a nice song to have.
Okay. So, uh, thank you Walter for being here. Thank you for all those who are listening.
Uh, we're going to go out with a stranger in Moscow by Michael Jackson. And of course, in the words of the great American poet Bill Withers, I wish you well.